Turning Challenges Into Opportunities With Real Estate Investor Patrick Grimes

Patrick Grimes  00:00

I like to find partners that have been through failure. And I can see evidence of how they were during failure, and how they came out of it.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:06

So, Good Morning, and Welcome to another episode of Better Business, Better Life. Today I am joined by Patrick Grimes, who is joining us from Southern California. And Patrick is a CEO and founder of invest on Main Street, which is a real estate investment firm. But he’s also the co author of Amazon number one best selling book, persistence pivots and Game Changers turning challenges into opportunities. So some really interesting things we were talking about this morning. Welcome to the show, Patrick.

Patrick Grimes  00:32

 Excited to be here, really cool show and I hope I can add some value to your listeners,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:36

I have no doubt you’ll be able to do that. I’m really looking forward to sharing your story with us. So I’ve only a quick chat to Patrick beforehand. And I’m actually gonna hand it over to him and say, Hey, Patrick was talking about your, your life so far, how you got into the business you’re in how it’s got to where it is today. And one of the things you’re most proud of on that journey as well.

Patrick Grimes  00:53

Well, so I actually come back from an engineering background. I started as a mechanical engineer, and then proceeded to get a master’s in engineering and an MBA. Meanwhile, I was doing real estate actually, the first automation house I worked for the owner said, Hey, you should invest in real estate as soon as you can and as much as you can. And I did that aggressively. And then I lost it all in eight, nine and ten. I mean, I was going big, big Gamble’s on what I thought were great bets. And as it turns out, I didn’t understand the basic principles of market volatility and building Investment portfolio to last and so that that definitely shifted my trajectory and probably made us successful to where we are today and private equity firm over 500 million.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  01:44

Yeah, great. And so what so you obviously got encouraged to go into it early. But I mean, it’s sad that you kind of lost it all. But you must have had some huge lessons from that. What were the lessons that you took from that experience?

Patrick Grimes  01:57

Yeah, so I guess the lessons are kind of two step my in that time i i had really wanted to be the hare and not the tortoise from the tortoise and the hare. I had done due diligence and looked at investments and thought well hey look I’m a busy professional I need to invest moonlight my investments and do it myself and I started investments that would try and double triple my money every couple of years right and there’s a certain risk profile associated with those and not only did were those years that potentially I lost a lot but I had personally guaranteed loans that fully recourse so they came after me and it took me not a couple years took me four or five years to recover from from that incident. And and so on the other side of it. I was humbled there I wasn’t as cocky or arrogant or bold. I was back to engineering I feel there’s any engineers on this call I cranked up the safety factor of my designed investments, started doing things with recession resilient markets, I learned all about recession, resilient markets, ones that have diversified employment which allowed for that allow for recessions to happen and they bounce back quickly or stay sustained. You know, healthcare, finance, logistics, things are not fleeting. And ones that have the many of those parallels like the Houston some Sunbelt locations that where we invest today and then I learned about assets that cash flow and that can write out recessions and how to structure those deals so they’re safe from rising interest rates and inflation and And finding the right investors that will partner with me I think there was a lot there and the patients that I learned to go in was two and a half years after I decided to get into larger apartments to really learn the business analysis paralysis as an engineer, but you know, in that time it paid off.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:50

And so your portfolio is commercial real estate and I know a lot of people very easily invest in residential and have their you know, their additional income home for that but the commercial estate business it’s it’s quite different, isn’t it? Tell us a little bit about why would you invest in commercial versus residential? Well, when I came crawling out of 2008, nine and 10 and I started doing large bonuses again in my automation robotics career in engineering, I started needing replacement dump my bonuses and so I used all my own capital started buying distressed properties and recession resilient markets and those were single family because I do it all myself. And and it worked. I was able to build a team afar from afar out of California, find properties, renovate them with contractors, property managers, least a month refi out my investments and then roll into the next the challenge was that I was trading my time I was Moonlighting. I my family, friends and hobbies were taking a hit overall stress level from a very demanding job was and I was trying to do it all myself. When I realized when I met my wife or soon to be wife, she was actually there for my very last close

Patrick Grimes  04:59

Think. And that’s when I decided she was there. And I said, Look, this is the last one. She’s like, really? What are you gonna do? I’m like, Well, I’m going to do I think I’m going to do apartments I’ve been researching a lot. You can partner up through scale. And you can move into commercial assets that are non recourse debts long at large enough buildings and cashflow. And the banks will give you attractive debt safer, right buildings that you can have vacancies and you don’t lose 100% of your revenue. And those vacancies can be so low and still pay your bills that it’ll write out a recession, if you’re in the right assets, and so, say to having all these conversations, and we realized that commercial was the way to go, and it’s more of a financial institution. So I started building a business where we could have on site property management, I could work with commercial brokers get the right kind of debt. And then we got into our first property, and I haven’t looked back.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:50

Excellent. So how many staff do you have in the team now? And and where are they based, because you’ve mentioned, you’re doing it all remotely from from California, tell me a little about the structure of the business now and what that looks like.

Patrick Grimes 06:02

I’m thinking that a website has an highlights probably, I don’t know. 15, I think on our team’s page, and we’re since we’re doing a diversified portfolio of income generating real estate on the real estate side, we also do oil and gas as well. And generationally, my family’s been involved in that. So but on the real estate side, and we I think we have, depending upon the partners that we work with in different areas,

Patrick Grimes  06:30

We have about that many within the purview of with directly under invest on Main Street and through other entities and the asset management property management side. And on property management side, there’s hundreds on the vertically integrated. And that’s a completely different business. And you need a different partner, somebody who’s very process oriented and taking things from 95 to 100%. Not somebody like me, who’s the entrepreneur, innovator, that’s looking for the next creative structure the next discounted by, you know, and then chasing it, and trying to design something and create it. So it’s very different business. But on the private equity side, that’s that’s how that structure works.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  07:10

So, you’re really the visionary in the business aren’t your that the person is got the big ideas that goes out there and sort of changes the way things are done. But you’re not necessarily the person who’s good at the background follow up and making sure everything is the the boxes are ticked, is that right? Or once it’s over the finish line, you know, a lot of the heavy lifting mentally has been done. And then once we get to takeover of the properties, then at that point, you need to plug in a really solid process guy that takes I The analogy I like to make is when I worked at the plant, I used to do work at Tesla, Lockheed. So I did work at Toyota, there were tests that became Tesla later, and the Japanese plant with those guys that would work their entire lives on a piece of the windshield molding and prevent wind noise, right. And that’s a process guy that’s gonna go from 95 to 96, 97, 98. He measures success in those kinds of sustained process, you know, standardization procedures, but I can do that. I’m, we’re in I’m already in the let’s figure out the next generation of the next model vehicle, right? And disrupt this way. And where can I find the lowest risk business for my investors for the future and the best haven for their capital? That’ll give us the best risk adjusted return? And then plug in, you know, those other people that are those process people?  And I guess, I mean, I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, sort of usually family owned businesses, privately owned businesses, professional services. And it’s really hard for the owner to actually let go to other people on the team, who are those experts? Who are the specialists? How have you managed that in your business?

Patrick Grimes  08:43

It was very difficult because when I went for my single family, where I was trading my time for my family and friends and hobbies, and actually have some articles I’ve written in Forbes to try and explain this on the asset protection of single versus multi, the accelerated retirement accelerated returns the inflation hedging all these things, but although cognitively, it made sense to me, the trusting especially having been very risk averse, like I have in the past, it literally took from the day I said, Hey, honey, I’m not doing any more single family. We got married in California and got married in Beijing. Over that period, I was studying, traveling around meeting different partners. And the beauty of the commercial assets is you can partner there’s enough meat on the bone to find the right kind of guys. And you can find people with decades of experience in each specific area. But we met with dozens of partners that didn’t have the right core values. We didn’t have the right mentality when long term legacy wealth building, I’m looking for people that want to roll 1031 Exchange forward, that want to build a not big quick wins, flips and big tax liabilities, long term sustained legacy wealth. And it’s literally over and over and over. In fact, we were living in Hawaii during COVID and many times I was right

Patrick Grimes   10:00

I hang out to look at properties, three of them in Houston one time and I went home with my tail between my legs back to the racking, just because of the combination of finding the right partners at the right deal at the with the right, everything, it’s just very difficult to find. And I think the key is just really being patient. And the sooner that I learned to partner and how to partner, by we do background checks, we, we kind of date before we get married, and you know, do all kinds of things to, but the sooner I learned that, the better life I afforded my family, because it freed us up and it freed me up to do what I love to do. And when I’m excited and what my superpower is. And I get to sit in a on a zoom call nowadays, or the room before with a bunch of people that are doing what they love to do, and they’re in their niche, and they’re excited, and they’re doing their superpower. And when you kind of build that kind of synergy, that kind of energy, everybody loves each other up in those rooms.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  10:55

I completely agree. I mean, we talked about with CEOs, you know, doing what you love with people you love. And that is really about making sure that you are delegating everything that doesn’t make your heart sing, or where you don’t add real value to the business. Because if you’re doing the stuff that is the other $25 An hour work or the stuff that isn’t the stuff that makes your heart sing, you’re not really creating that energy that that pushes the business forward. So please say how do you how do you check for core value fit because core values is absolutely key, in my opinion. And if you ever waver on those and and you know sort of take it to get the quick win, you’ll end up being bitten by it. But people can present themselves in one way in an initial meeting. And then you actually get to find out they’re quite different in terms of where they behave. So how do you test that core value fit for your, for your partners, for your staff, for the people that come into partnership with you?

Patrick Grimes  11:42

Yeah, it’s funny is that by the way, just going back to your heart sing. So here I am doing a podcast with Debra silky Could you hear my heart singing right now, because here I am doing it with you. So

Debra Chantry-Taylor  11:54

I love I love doing this to you get

Patrick Grimes  11:57

Your energy, it’s really high.

Patrick Grimes 12:00

On that topic, I actually took me a lot of growth to get my head off the grinding stone as a as an engineer to actually be able to get my name out there. Because I was just doing deals in the background. And the over analysis paralysis also showed up in the the trust but verify. But it was very difficult for me to trust partners. And what I like to say is that the some of my partners that have never been through a downturn, have never been humbled, and oftentimes don’t even understand the questions that I’m asking. And I just did a presentation in Chicago about how can you structure deals in this economy. And I was speaking on the stage and I was going on Pam, people were asking me, I was like, well, everybody on this panel has been through a downturn. Those are the people that feel that know how to structure deals through these. And so I like to find partners that have been through failure. And you and I can see evidence of how they were during failure. And how they came out of it. I didn’t go bankrupt I could have and I probably should have. But I didn’t I found my way through it right, as long as that, you know, sucked. And and not that going bankrupt was bad many, many people did. But I like to

Debra Chantry-Taylor  13:10

See these two sometimes. Yeah.

Patrick Grimes 13:12

Did they learn from that? And how did that change them and shift them. And so when I when I present investments to individuals nowadays, I look to what questions are asking, right first, what are your questions? Are they asking questions that that align with my core values? And we look for capital preservation of our investors? Are they trying to squeeze every last penny out of the investment? Or are they first looking to how this will be stress tested, we call it or tested to survive natural disasters or economic disasters is long term debt and fixed interest. How realistic you know, giving them assignments, like go figure out a rent comparable or, you know, seeing what they come back with? How realistic is what they’re saying? Are they just trying to just push this deal to a close? And that’s part of it. The other part of it is we want to have a culture you know, we’ve we’ve had that we’ve had to be we’ve been slow to hire, but we’ve been fast to let go. Because the problem is, is I’m very sticky. Very some people in my team that have been there since the very beginning. But that those people are incredible. They have great hearts, they’re driven, they’re focused, they’re self motivated. But when you build that kind of crew, the people that aren’t driven, self motivated and are a little more toxic, they stick out very apparently and then it brings down the rest of the team and so one of the best measures we have is to do it 3060 or 90 Day sprint in the beginning where we bring them on we get them exposure to everybody on the team and then they get to feel like well once they start getting a little bit stressed things start you know, maybe something flips that slips through the cracks and then maybe they made a mistake how are they reacting to it? And you know, those kinds of things is that’s gonna be very telling when things do get tough things are when a mistake is made it and insecurities, it’s one of the most litigious forms of loss. So we’re very meticulous, by there’s, I mean, there’s a lot of ways you know that, you know, we’ll we’ll test for culture, but those are some of them.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  15:12

I love it. And I love that whole slow to hire fast let go. And it’s the way you’ve got to do it is make sure you are really in the right people on board. And as soon as you have an issue, you’ve got to deal with it. I mean, I worked on a family businesses and, and as a professional services as multiple shareholders, there’s often some people there who probably shouldn’t be there, and they sort of struggle with this whole, well, how do we actually let them go. And the reality is, even if they’re your uncle, your auntie, your, your shareholder have to out 10 years, if they’re not in the right seat, they’re not able to do the job. They’re not, you know, sharing the same core values, they are going to actually bring that business down or stop it from actually getting to where it needs to get to. So I love it. Okay, cool. So you’ve, you’ve written a book, and and this is what you know, when I first read your profile, this is what really got me. So you decided to write a book about turning challenges as opportunities? Why did you decide to write a book? And where did that come from?

Patrick Grimes  16:00

Well, so one of my, one of my colleagues, Kyle Wilson said, Look, I want to get a book together on challenge pivot persistence, pivots, and Game Changers turning challenges and opportunities. And I’m like, Well, I can resonate with that. And because, you know, I’ve, I’ve been going back and forth. I mean, I’m full time real estate, private equity, and we’re doing oil and gas investments now, which are all in alignment with our values. And we have this very clear path, but it wasn’t always so clear. And there was ups and downs, I was slaving away, just snot nose engineer, and then trying to invest and losing it all. And then getting into single family, which was working, but then I was, you know, moonlighting and exhausted while getting two master’s degrees, and I had to let go of that to marry my wife, right? Because I was not invertible it was. And then I finally was like, Well, okay, now I got to figure out somebody else’s scales and partner and a lot of personal growth. And then I got into multifamily, and I found this piece, where, you know, I could make a improve living experience a cleaner, safer, healthier, healthier life for my residents, while returning incredible value to my investors. And in a great community, like yourself of great professionals, and, and that upside down journey was a lot of lessons learned. Kyle’s like That’s great. Let’s do it. Let’s let’s you know, and so, you know, I’m happy to give offer a free copy, dear listeners, persistence, pivots, and Game Changers turning challenges and opportunities. And I had a little more hair on my head at that time. That’s not a rig I actually had here. My wife is doing my COVID cuts. And one day, she’s like, It’s all coming up. And then like, a week, a month straight of that. And I finally better shave it off. And it’s still off. So. Yeah, but so I have that book and invest on Main street.com/book is with that. And you can have us from a code Debra. Then make sure to put Debra in there. And we’ll we’ll ship you a free signed copy. I believe in that. I believe in the content, a lot of great stories in there a lot of things and I’m happy to contribute how I can.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  18:04

I’m really appreciate that generosity. Thank you so much. So we’ll put the link also in the bottom of the podcast feed with the code. So you can actually use that and get that. So writing a book, that’s a bit of a different experience. How was that?

Patrick Grimes  18:16

So we had a wedding coach. So we had somebody on the sidelines, and I’m a technical writer. And I also write for Forbes, by the way, so I had

Debra Chantry-Taylor  18:25

Made note of that. So actually make sure we get the Forbes link in there as well.

Patrick Grimes  18:29

Page, a half dozen articles on investing in commercial real estate. And it’s all my passion, really, because I actually come from a family of educators. My dad’s got three PhDs and my sister’s a PhD. And so I’m not the most educated during the family. By far, I’m only 18 master’s degrees. I you know. But so I really want to get the message out there. Like I said, I was in grinding mill slaving away as professional engineer, high tech, you know, beginner trying to do it myself. And so I decided to get it all out there. And through Forbes, it’s been a great platform for me to share some of the lessons learned and sharpen. Why is inflation a better hedge right for multifamily? Those kinds of things. From a whole story perspective. The coaches said, Just get out there. Let’s have a conversation. Get out there, what you think in all the 1000s of investor calls, you’ve had just people investing in your deals, get all this stuff that you want to share out there in one spot instead of a bunch of little snippets. And then so I did that, and we started contextualizing it organizing it, and then she threw a lot of stuff out that I was like think of what the pack you know, and she had this whole strategy. It was very it was very fun process and a lot of nights and weekends at Starbucks for you know, getting all that out there but it definitely sharpened my vision as a result. I felt kind of like that next level of confidence and empowerment to go get my story out there as opposed to just sitting in the

Patrick Grimes  20:00

In the room analyzing deals and knocking them out. Yeah. And I think writing a book is a little bit like business as well. I mean, like less is actually more.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  20:08

 So I’m very, very guilty of why use three words when I can use 3000 words to tell you a story. But in actual fact, you have to have real clarity, like you said, of what is the journey throughout their book, and businesses the same, right? You’ve got to have real clarity on what are the most important things because if everything is important, nothing is important. So tell me, I mean, you obviously have done some work around, you know, what your vision is, and your core focus on core values. How did you get to that? Because sometimes getting that level of clarity is hard. I mean, I’ve heard you say the book helped. But how else do you actually work to make sure you get really, really crystal clear on what was important in the business?

Patrick Grimes  20:44

Well, we’re at the point now with 500 million in holdings and multifamily and 200. In oil and gas, I think we have 300. And some investors that are repeating here, we have a business that’s moving along. And I I’ve done 1000s of calls, and I have I can relate to both and do it yourself, or I can relate to those people that are slaving away. And when I speak about our investments, changing the facts and figures of what the deal is to the impact that it has, because they’re not educated in America, specifically, about any more than their 401 K, or maybe an IRA, maybe there isn’t a financial planner, those are all the same assets. And if you read my passive investor guide, it’s all about diversifying into non correlated assets like real estate and oil and gas and ones that right now when real estate rallies are waiting, oil and gas is going up. So changing my message and changing the focus. Now we have core values of everything’s written in plain English like and we have like this, this hypothetical dollar jar when like, that’s jargon, that’s jargon, because for so many years, it was nothing was understandable to anybody that we were saying was what every other private equity firm had. But now we have this culture around making everything understandable making the stories relate to, to the come from of people that are professionals, we want to make an impact on their life, we want to we want to be the most relatable person in the room, not come across as the smartest person in the room necessarily, but the person that they understand. And that’s probably one of the biggest is being drawn in by the need that we’re making in the marketplace, and then shifting our messaging as a company and our way of being around that. That’s definitely what made the biggest impact.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  22:40

Did you have any help to kind of get that happening within the team? Or was it sort of, you know, how did you actually because I think we’re all a little bit guilty of it is that we are very, very clear about what we want, but the way that we articulate may not be easily understandable by the people around us. So how did you get that clarity with the team and get to the plain English? Like, what? How did you do it?

Patrick Grimes  23:00

Well, so I cuz I write technically, I’m a technical writer, but you know, but so the the first steps was writing blogs, the second step was working with Forbes, because they will constantly beat it down to something that’s very understandable and pull out the technicality. And then the second third step was doing this book, where I felt I got coached through that. And can my my brain was forced to constantly rewrite in more and more and more fluid ways. And then we have two different content writers and I’ll still sit there looking at our deal. informations are slide decks, our ads will sit there. And we’re brainstorm on the words and the phraseology. And some of those wordsmiths are just incredible, because I’ll say, Hey, this is what this is supposed to mean, and what it does, and how do we phrase it. So we’ve got a lot of help. And those kinds of things, because there really isn’t anybody else presenting the deals like we are, so that they’re as understandable as they are that we There’s nobody like we’re copying. Like we’re just trying to raise all and trail. And we’re trying different combinations of different messaging things and about all kinds of very complex topics to address it.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  24:14

Okay, awesome. Hey, look, um, we could be talking about this all day long. But I am conscious that we’re sort of coming to the end of the podcast, I always ask our guests to kind of share some stuff with us. And you’ve already shared some really valuable things about you know, being slow to hire fast to let go. You know, the fact that you, you get outside help to help with clarifying and there’s messages and things. We’ve talked about a whole range of things, but the three top kinds of things that you would like to share that have really helped you either in your professional life or your personal life.

Patrick Grimes  24:41

Well, I think the first one I’d say is, is to partner up in your investment career. Most of the financial IQ of America is stuck in these 401 K’s IRAs or maybe their financial planner, financial planners are only doing correlated assets that are tax effective inflation.

Patrick Grimes  25:00

expected and they fight away from doing private equity investments that can actually change your life but it requires a partnership with other asset managers and fund managers like myself to make that happen. The sooner I learned how to do that, the more successful I came and then built Fratton, the faster I was able to walk away from my high tech, you know, job right to career. The one thing is a by Gary Keller, what probably incredible book that changed my life because there’s so many things to do. But what is the one thing and those few things that will make the big difference? I recommend everybody read that. And I run every probably the third thing would be that daily clarity moment, I run every morning around this lake right behind me with my puppy nowadays. So

Debra Chantry-Taylor  25:48

Puppy Do you have?

Patrick Grimes  25:49

 We have a puppy on Pomeranian animal, it’s a beautiful and agility dog that run me to death failed literally runs everything around me the whole time. Wow. So that that is my focus kind of meditative. I’ll put on podcast self help, but get prepared mentally for the day. So I start strong every morning. And I was recommend you know that somebody find that? Call it 30 to 40 minutes of that daily way to then recenter themselves.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  26:23

I completely agree. And you know, you mentioned very, very early on the podcast that in the beginning, the early days, you weren’t getting time for family and friends and other passions. I know you’ve got some amazing passions kitesurfing. And I read a whole bunch of stuff there in your profile. So are you finding time for those things these days?

Patrick Grimes  26:40

I am now. Yeah, and you know, we we are doing great. We’ve got great partners, we got a great staff, I can finally trust in things to move forward. A lot of very focused people might we’re actually having a first child in December.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  26:54

 Oh, yeah.

Patrick Grimes  26:55

Lawns came to visit with us for a few months during this time and from Beijing. So they’re, they’re here. We have a couple months scheduled to go to Hawaii next year, which is kind of our, our happy place that it’s better for me to be in Southern California for business. But for a couple of years, a couple of months out of the year, we can get away. And I do a lot of traveling. I’ve been through Europe and Asia pretty extensively in a couple years since and so we we make it a point to focus on that quality of life and not just be, you know, chasing an endless gold pot of you know, whatever.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  27:30

Yep, it sounds like you’re different living the ideal life. And I think, from what I’ve heard you that all kind of change once you you change to how you are doing the investment and bringing those other partners on board and kind of letting go to people to do what they’re really good at that you can do what you’re really good at. So it sounds fantastic. Now you’re obviously passionate about helping people, I can see that I can hear that for what you’re talking about. So how do you help people? How can they get in contact with you?

Patrick Grimes 27:55

Well, so invest on main street.com, invest on Main and then street.com. If you go to slash book you can, we’ll send you a copy a free copy of our book. It’s I think you’ll enjoy that on our website, we have passive investments open both in multifamily workforce housing and very recession resilient, low risk assets a way for you to actually make money with inflation right now and protect yourself from interest rates. So we I those, those are about the best capital preservation, cash flowing tax advantaged assets that you can purchase. And so we constantly are chasing the look for those very difficult to find investments. And so those are open. We also have oil and gas that allows you to get into a non correlated asset, where you can start hanging your hat on more than just real estate in the stock market where valuations are going up and cashflow is going up the future’s bright and oil and gas drilling and the tax advantages are incredible for ordinary professionals. It take like 30 75% of it off the first year, it’s like getting a 30% return on your investment first year. So that that is one way that we help to kind of lift up the financial IQ and the portfolio of our of our investors. And if you’re just interested in making some investments, but you’re not sure where you’re at, or you’re a landlord slogging away with tenants toilets and trash and you want to trade out, set up a call, you know, I’ve got all kinds of feedback for you on my journeys and love chat with new investors see where you’re at. And you can do that invest on Main street.com/contact

Patrick Grimes  29:25

Or email me at Patrick@investonmainstreet.com.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  29:30

Fantastic. Hey, look, Patrick, you have shared such a huge amount of valuable information. And I really appreciate you sharing the book. We’ve also got to put the Forbes link in there as well. So it can be posed to your your Forbes articles or your authoring. I just want to say thank you so much for your time this afternoon for you this morning. For me, it’s been an absolute pleasure. And yeah, don’t forget to go and check that out. So investment on Main street.com forward slash book or forward slash contact, we’ll give you those two things we’ve talked about. So Patrick, thank you for your time. I really, really appreciate it.

Patrick Grimes  29:57

Have a great day Debra.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  29:59

Thank you very  much.