AON Award-Winning Employer: Employsure's Edge | Laurence Mc Lean | Ep 134

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Laurence Mc Lean  00:00

In this, there’s lots of examples that we see we see it all the time, actually, where an employee takes an email the wrong way, they they take it as a as an attack on them, or they take it as a, as a demand, they’ve got to do this. And then when they when the two parties meet and discuss it, it’s actually fine. They actually were both on the same page in the first place. So, you know, it’s really hard to get and we actually see clients use like things like emojis all the time as a way to, you can actually add some emotion or some subtlety to an email, perhaps I mean, significant over pace and personal conversations, but it can be really conscious.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:33

Hello, and welcome to another edition of better business better life. Today, I am joined by Lawrence McLean, who is Associate Director of Operations of employee shore here in New Zealand. And of course, employer is actually an Australian and New Zealand Company. Is that right? That’s right. Yep. Welcome to the studio. lovely to have you.

Laurence Mc Lean  00:48

Thank you. It’s great to be here.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:49

Yeah. So I’m very much looking forward to talking to you because we talk about EOS as people being like the life force of the business, you know, people can make or break a business. And obviously, your specialty is around ensuring that both the employer and the employee are on the same page and are working together. So looking forward to hearing about that. But first of all, let me just say a little bit about your background. So how did you come to be an employee? Sure. What’s your background? Lawrence? What do you do?

Laurence Mc Lean  01:12

Great. Thanks, Debra. It’s great to be here. Look, I really come from a legal and business background. I’ve worked in a couple of different organizations. When I first started, actually, outside university, I worked at Community Law Waikato and we really worked with employees with difficult situations that they were in. So looking at the employee side of the equation, for the last six years or so I’ve been working at employers or New Zealand, looking at the employer side of the equation. So I’ve kind of seen both sides of the equation, I’ve seen the difficulties that can arise from an employer point of view from an employer, employer point of view. And also what what works well, perhaps what doesn’t work? Well, all sorts of, I think situations or sorts of processes, the sorts of opportunities and ideas that both sides of that equation can use to have a really, really successful employment relationship. And I’m sure it’s you and your listeners will know that an assessment successful employment relationship always leads to a bit of business.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  02:05

Yes, absolutely. I completely agree. So I think that sometimes, though, people get a little bit nervous, because EOS is actually an American operating system. And so I mean, when we first get sort of trained in the US, and they talked about people, they kind of go off somebody’s not the right person who’s going to get rid of them. It’s not quite as simple as that over here, we have slightly different laws for good reason. So people get nervous when they you know, when they know that they have to actually deal with people issues, but they shouldn’t be nervous. Should they

Laurence Mc Lean  02:30

Know that’s right. I mean, if you have if you if you start with really strong fundamentals, you maintain it through the entire employment relationship. And nine times out of 10 have a really successful employment relationship. And as you spoke about, it’s not quite the same as the fire at well system in America, we do have more obligations here. And in fact, New Zealand does have fairly complex and sometimes gray employment, employment space. But you know, having really strong processes, having that support, planning for those sorts of situations that you might come across, can can make your life a whole lot easier, both as a business owner and as a member working within a business as well. So, you know, if you come with that sort of approach, you come with that sort of planned approach, then then it’s all it’s all surmountable.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:10

Fair enough. And so, you know, in some of the businesses that are growing very, very fast, things change quite rapidly. How do you kind of make sure that you are keeping people up to date with what is going on? And I suppose I just had a question I’ve actually got in my mind, we have job descriptions in the beginning, and job description when you first start, they might change over time. So how do you make sure that you keep on top of that as as the business changes as a needs change?

Laurence Mc Lean  03:33

There’s a couple of tips you can you can kind of take away that can really help with that. I think number one is communication. I think communication can overcome a lot of issues. And as you said, businesses grow businesses change. All sorts of things can can change an employment relationship. And in fact, it often does. That’s that’s kind of what often engages an employee to stay is the fact that there’s new challenges, new opportunities. But if you communicate through that, if you keep your employees in the loop in terms of that communication cycle, if you make sure that they they’re coming along with you on that journey, as a business owner, as in terms of growing your business, they will often that they’ll often be on board, they’ll often work with you to help your business be more successful, they’ll often be more tolerant, perhaps things don’t go exactly the way you expect. And things really ever do go exactly the way that you expect. So I think having that really strong communication, having that joint, you know, that joint vision that that kind of joint enterprise in terms of the business can can really help to make sure that as the business grows as things change, employees on board and and then meeting you, you know, when you’re when you’re when you’re making those changes when you want to, you know, expand your business, if you want to try out new areas you want to do whatever it is the employees do along with you. It’s not coming into complete shock. Exactly. And I think you know, New Zealand has a very laid back kind of culture and we run into we often run into a lot of employers who have taken that sort of laid back approach with their employees and it often works really well for perhaps the first couple of years, and then things change, or you know, economy may change and the business may become tight at the margins may become tighter and, and this often that often motivates a need for change within the business and the employee that’s been used to this, you know, kind of more laissez faire approach or things working a certain way, the business owner may have been thinking about these challenges that they’ve been facing for perhaps the last 612, nine months, whatever it may be. And then they go to roll it out with your employee, and they get big pushback from your employee, because it is coming as a shock to them as you see it. So it’s, I think it’s a, it’s a sometimes not a very key thing to do is, is to be communicative and to have that really kind of open ship. Exactly. But it is, I think, what’s really needed, particularly for a growing business or for a changing business, yeah,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:47

Part of the EOS model actually kind of advocates for you know, first of all weekly meetings at all levels, the end result was across the board and cascading messages, they go up and down. So people know, what is happening at the senior leadership team level. And then having a sort of a joint, we call it the state of the company update at least once a quarter, which is like telling people, you know, this is where we were headed. This is what we’ve managed to achieve. This is what hasn’t worked as what has worked. And here’s the next quarter and sharing that, that journey so that nothing comes as a surprise.

Laurence Mc Lean  06:13

Right. And that’s both beneficial from just from an engagement point of view with your employees, keeping them engaged and on board. But also from a legal point of view, you actually have a legal obligation as an employer to be open and communicative with your employees. So you should be you should be not, obviously, you have to communicate everything. And that’s not exactly. Obviously, some elements remain confidential. But as much as as possible, you have an obligation, I think legally and perhaps also morally, to communicate with your employees and keep them up to date with what’s happening. Yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  06:41

And I think I see it a lot when businesses grow quite quickly, as you think of in the beginning, when it’s a small business, you might have 567, let’s say 10 people. And it’s really easy to keep those communication lines open. Because it’s a small team, you can meet on a regular basis, you’re catching up with each other, and then it grows from 10 to 20 to 100 people. And all of a sudden those you know that communication is a lot tougher, right? Because you just can’t have an all staff meeting every week and have a chat about what’s going on. Yeah, so what do you kind of recommend in terms of keeping a bigger team engaged,

Laurence Mc Lean  07:11

I think that’s really where policies processes documentation can be can be a really helpful tool, as you spoke about when you’re a small business, you can often do a lot of that verbally, perhaps just over email or you know, kind of more informal methods, the bigger you grow, if you want to maintain that, that very consistent culture across all elements or levels of your business, you really need to document you really need to have process guides for everything that you’re doing, not just for the employees. But also if you’ve got middle managers or managers in between, you’ve often got a business owner that has a really clear vision of what they want. They’re really passionate about what they’re doing. You might also have employees like that, but things get lost in translation. Yeah, and so, so having really clear procedures for employees, but also for managers, you know, guys in terms of the way they should be dealing with employees, or the ability for employees to potentially skip the manager and go to the owner or talk to a high level manager, that’s what really allows you to keep that same sort of success, that same sort of cohesion, or consistency. Even as you grow. And you start to add more and more levels or layers to your business,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  08:14

We have a thing called also like a quarterly quarterly conversation, which is a more informal discussion as well, which I, I highly linked. So you’ve got that you’ve got the formal side that you want to do. But there’s also an opportunity for these people to actually feedback on what’s working, what’s not working for them, and how they’re going in their role, how they’re going to get the values, having those conversations. But even though they’re informal, they’re still regular, so they are booked into the calendars, people know that they’re coming, and then they’ve got they feel like they’ve got a chance to actually have some input. Yeah, that’s

Laurence Mc Lean  08:41

Right. And the more you commit, as I spoke about earlier, the more we communicate with your employees, the more that they feel part of it, the more they’re going to play their part in terms of having the business succeed.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  08:50

And especially the business changes, like so then because let’s face it, we sometimes we can’t help it, for the last three years have been a great example of things that completely beyond our control, and can actually affect the business. Okay, one of the things that we find as the business grows, and you move away from being a smaller business to a slightly larger business, is you’ve got all these additional kind of layers, if you like, and different levels of people. And then there’ll be a time when maybe somebody who fitted in in the beginning of the business maybe doesn’t doesn’t work so much in where the business is headed, because the roles have changed. So it’s not about the person, they might still share the company values, but they’re, you know, that they might not fit into the role that is evolving. Here. We have a thing called an accountability chart, which is where we actually go through and we go, right, and what are the functions that we need? And what are these roles look like? And then we actually have a thing called GW See, we kind of go does this person actually really get it? Do they want it to have capacity to do it, which is a little bit of the, you know, they get it in terms of what the role is about do they want it as in genuinely wanted? Do they have the capacity to do it? What happens if you see a gap there? What happens if the role is evolving and maybe the person isn’t evolving with the role how would you handle that?

Laurence Mc Lean  09:58

It kind of depends where you come where that comes from kind of arises in terms of the lifecycle as to what approach you would take. And with all issues, the early you kind of catch it, the early you deal with it, the easier it is to fix. So, you know, as you see the role changing or you know, perhaps your values change, and that can happen all the time, just making sure that you’re not to, to keep on the same beat all the time, but communicating with your employees, making sure that that they understand that there’s a change, you update, you know, if you’ve got perhaps a performance appraisal document, and it has your old values or your old duties or your old vision, making sure that it’s updated regularly. And that you’re assessing your employees against that, you know, that the most up to date, the most current version of what you’re looking for. You’re using that with your employees, because not only does that mean that, you know, you know what their capacity is, or what they want to do that is, but they also know what’s expected from them. One of the biggest issues you often find with employees who are perhaps seen as lower performers, by their, by their managers, or by their employers, is that those employees don’t actually understand what it is they should be doing, or what sort of goal they’re heading towards.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  11:10

And they haven’t got those measurables in place. Yeah, I always joke because it’s like, it’s boundaries, we actually, as humans, we quite like boundaries. We like to know what it what it what we can do what we can’t do. And we also like to know what we’re aiming for as well. Because sometimes without those measurables, you feel like you, you don’t have anything. And then of course, if you start to pick somebody up on performance and kind of not performing based on what

Laurence Mc Lean  11:30

You write, and as I say that the biggest gap is often for poor performance, it’s just not understanding and perhaps the manager or the owner having objectives or expectations that that employee had no idea about. And then often that’s going to create a little bit tension or a little bit gap between the between the two parties. And it just comes

Debra Chantry-Taylor  11:48

Back to communication again, right. It’s miscommunication. So it’s like, if you’re not being really clear and sharing that clarity all the time, then there’s an error, there’s room for error. Oh,

Laurence Mc Lean  11:58

Absolutely. And and I think, again, nine times out of 10 communication can fix most problems, you’ll get the odd one that perhaps it can be a really quick, clear communicator and install issues. But for the most part, you know, we are all human beings. And I think one of the difficulties of running a business is you’re dealing with you. And I think people just want to know what’s happening. They want to know where they’re going. They want to know, how they’re working with their colleagues to get there.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  12:21

Yeah, absolutely, we use a thing called a peephole analyzer. And I didn’t get to show this to you outside, but it’s basically we put the core values across the top. And then we use it to actually analyze how the person is going with those core values. And we have a really simple methodology. So if you are 90% of the time you are exhibiting the core value, you get tick, if you kind of flip flopping, you get a plus minus, if you’re really not exhibiting that core value, you get a minus. And I always sort of think the plus minus is where there is room for improvement for you as a leader as well, right? Understanding what’s really causing that because if somebody is flip flopping, it doesn’t mean that they don’t share that core value, it just means something is probably going on for them.

Laurence Mc Lean  12:56

Yeah, and really inconsistent performance as a really clear early warning sign that perhaps performance is dropping, or there may be major issues later on. As I said earlier, if you can nip that in the bud really, really quickly or early, the employee will be happier. And you’ll probably be happy as a business owner because your employee is doing what you want them to do. And they’re going towards that vision. So you know, that sort of flip flopping that that that sometimes they’re good sometimes perhaps not so good. Yeah, those are really the times you want to step in and intervene and

Debra Chantry-Taylor  13:24

Red flags, that is a red flag that there’s something going on that you need to look at as a leader as a manager and see what’s really going on as right. And

Laurence Mc Lean  13:30

Again, kiwi culture, I think people tend to not really deal with issues until it’s until it’s a really big issue. Yes, and then that’s a really hard thing to do. And we often help employers in very difficult situation. And it’s tough, it’s really emotionally draining on those employees, it’s financially draining on their business, those ones that can can give us a call early or look to nip it in the bud early. Those are the ones where we can overcome those fairly easily. And you know, have that really continued success, keep growing.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  13:57

And we are all humans, right? Which means we do stuff up, you know, with all the best intentions in the world, there are times when we just actually make a mistake, even as leaders or managers, right. And sometimes that you know, that can get completed a report and I’ve seen it happen where actually some a tiny little thing that was just a mistake has blown into this massive big issue. What do you do in that situation?

Laurence Mc Lean  14:17

Most we do see that a lot. I have to say we have a lot of our clients that call into implosion. And what looks to us is a relatively minor issue. It’s actually a really big issue for our clients. And when we kind of dig in and we speak to our clients about, well, what’s what’s really what’s really driving this, this anxiety or this or this worry with you with his issue. And what we often see under the surface is that there’s actually a whole lot of other issues that that that have kind of been bubbling away into the surface that haven’t been dealt with and you get the one issue that kind of breaks the straw that breaks the camel’s back essentially. So, you know, if you have again, not written the same thing as before, but if you have a minor issue, deal with it early, don’t you know don’t kind of put it to the side brush on the carpet or look it’s just one time I hope it goes away. Because you do that three or four times, and suddenly you’ve got a big problem. And that’s, that’s, that’s the clients who we see really struggle, the ones that are more proactive about dealing with, then you can do it in a really informal quick way you just pull the person aside, have a really informal chat to them, Hey, look, I saw you did this, you have case a bit of here’s a tip about how you can avoid it in the future, or else I can help you stop yourself get into a situation in the future. And I think employers really appreciate that sort of regular feedback and formal feedback. I think when you when you make it a really formal process, or it’s a bigger issue, and you’re dealing with it, that’s where you start to get some pushback from the employees. So it persecutors, that’s right, well, they feel like they that was that’s happened a couple of times before and it wasn’t. Yeah, so why is it industry now? So, so dealing with it in an informal way? Making sure you’re being upfront about it, you’ve got to be you know, you’ve got to front foot some of these issues. If you do that, then it avoids them bubbling into bigger issues or building into issues that perhaps become outside of your control.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  16:01

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s why we kind of advocate for weekly meetings and actually having those weekly conversations and, and also, I think he made a really good point, like, don’t have that critique in front of all of their peers, I always, like pull them aside, have that conversation about what’s going on, rather than putting them on the spot and everybody else. But it needs to be dealt with as soon as it happens, as opposed to letting it go. Because I think the thing about boundaries is, boundaries are set because they are consistent, and they’re repeated over and over again. And if you allow a certain behavior to happen, and it happens, you know, once or twice without being picked up, yeah, then you’re basically moving that boundary and going, this is acceptable.

Laurence Mc Lean  16:35

Exactly. And I think when employees feel like they’re being treated unfairly, and that’s a great example of we’re not, they often do feel like they’ve been treated unfairly. That’s where you really start to get that tension. That’s where you get the breakdown of that relationship. Employees that that know where the boundaries are, where the walls are, where they can step where they can’t step. Although that may seem like it’s a bit more controlling, it’s actually helpful for them. And employees often appreciate that a lot more than they do more vague, ambiguous kind of instructions or expectations.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  17:03

If you do sort of feel that maybe the relationship isn’t working as well as it can. I know you’re a lawyer. So I’m asking more from it. Is it? Is it okay to have an informal conversation? Or are you better to follow a performance management procedure, I’m just wondering, Where’s, where’s the starting point for when you’re feeling unhappy? Where is the starting point,

Laurence Mc Lean  17:22

I would say a starting point is always an informal conversation. I mean, you can jump straight to formal if you want to. But there is a more contentious process. And it often comes with a bit more push and shove, so to speak. So if you start with an informal conversation, perhaps the employee mate may really be responsive to that and may make the change and don’t perfect. And it doesn’t eliminate your ability to do to have a more formal process after that. So we always advocate for an escalation of steps. So start with it really informal process, maybe a quick chat, or them aside, maybe in the one to one, if that doesn’t work, then perhaps you put an email, you put it in writing, you can perhaps reiterate it and an eyelid error or an update to the job description. If that’s still not working, you’ve had those sorts of conversations, and the employer is still below expectations, or still causing major issues within the organization, then you’ve got that formula. But you’ve got the ability to go formal and have a really formal process. And make really clear what your expectations are. And if it’s still not being met, you need to look at more formulas.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  18:25

And I think it comes down to and I’ve seen a lot of businesses that I work with is that we always say that every single person should have at least one measurable. That’s their boundary, right, that says this is what we expect from these are the outcomes we expect that’s measured on a regular basis. And therefore you can have those conversations where it’s not being met. If you haven’t got those measures in place, it makes those conversations more difficult, doesn’t it?

Laurence Mc Lean  18:43

It does, it makes it more difficult in terms of trying to communicate to your employer what they expect and makes it more difficult in terms of showing them where perhaps they have fallen short, it can be really hard if you don’t have something to measure against, to actually get the employee to even accept that they have fallen short of your expectations.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  18:58

And it can become personal I think, feet no sorry, since it feels more personal, because we’re not talking about facts and figures. But we’re talking about well, I don’t believe that you’ve performed well.

Laurence Mc Lean  19:08

You’re spot on. Absolutely. And those are the sorts of relationships that we often say that the biggest issue then is where either both the employer or the employee feel there’s a personal aspect to it. So so really making it as as impersonal as you possibly can, making an objective as you possibly can not only helps you in terms of processes and speed of resolving that, but it also leaves more options open for you from a legal point of view as well. So it’s kind of got that job benefit.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  19:39

So that when it comes down to the role and what’s expected in your role delivery that becomes quite easy when it comes down to a values kind of fit so sometimes this is just from my personal experience, you know, you can interview people and they can come across wonderfully. You can do a reference check and they’re they’re absolutely there they get they’re never gonna give you a rough It’s another great reference. So let’s, let’s be realistic about it. And so you know, you employ the person and they actually come up with a job. And then suddenly you realize that there actually is a bit of a values mismatch. I mean, obviously, the best thing to do is to make sure that you do as much possible upfront to make sure that they do fit with the values. But what happens if they just don’t quite fit in? What are the options there?

Laurence Mc Lean  20:17

I mean, values can be an element of performance, for sure, is it actually a value driven organization, and in our regular performance reviews, we have a value section where we score people against our various values that we have. So there’s a there’s a, there’s a kind of more formal objective aspect in terms of data. And there’s also a section on value. So, you know, treat a value like any other performance metric, how are they performing against that value. And again, if you if you see a long standing issue with an employee, being inconsistent with your values as an organization, or perhaps not living up to your values, you can treat that as any as a as the same as any other sort of format. So the trick is, if it was late can be the same as if perhaps you’re not living up to that to that client is caring or customer comes first sort of value as well.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  21:02

Sure. And I think that but it’s important that you actually give specific examples, there’s no point in just saying, hey, look, I gave you a minus Lawrence, I think you’re a minus when it comes to being humble, confident, you kind of go well, what are you gonna give some some reference points to go? This is the, the behavior I’ve observed, or this is what I saw you do and give them some actual, I always had like, three reference points is quite nice,

Laurence Mc Lean  21:20

Right? There’s kind of two answers every performance sort of process. Well, element has that kind of guide to what the employee should be doing. Or as you say, examples of what living up to values can mean Yeah, and then the other document is how they measure against those values. Yep. And those are documents and combination can really make sure that you’re you’re on the right track, you’re keeping your employees on track.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  21:40

So we call it the core value speech and the core values which back to your to the values. So what it means around here, what it means what we do what we don’t do. And again, it’s about boundaries, if you don’t actually, if you don’t clearly articulate that from the beginning, it’s really hard for somebody to understand what what is expected of them.

Laurence Mc Lean  21:55

And not only that, but it also you know, if you have a couple of employees that perhaps aren’t living up to those values, when you have a new employee that comes in, they’re going to copy that behavior. Yes, if you’ve got a whole lot of employees that are living up to those values are really values driven. And, and everyone’s underlines and pointing in the same direction. When a new employee comes in, they’re gonna fall in line with everybody else. If you have a couple of people that have fallen short, or have values issues that can spread very, very quickly amongst an organization. Ripple Effect. Yes, exactly. So it’s not just about dealing with that employee, it’s not just the benefit of being able to resolve it more easily. If you address it quickly. Also has the benefit of flowing through to other employees as well.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  22:33

Sure, no, okay. So I didn’t realize that it really is the same as any other performance metrics. As long as you’ve been really clear and upfront, what we expect of you, then you are absolutely able to hold them just as accountable as to whether or not they’re achieving their KPIs that we call it, we call it our measurables. But yeah, the things that we’re expecting them in the role.

Laurence Mc Lean  22:51

Yeah, absolutely. The employment law in New Zealand, although it’s can be tough, and it’s got a lot of kind of trapdoors you can fall into it does, it’s not necessary prescriptive in terms of the way you have to run your business, you can run your business in whatever way you like, so long as you being open and communicative with your employees, so long as you’re doing it in a way that allows your employees to succeed. And that if you if there are issues that can be dealt with, in a fair way, it doesn’t go beyond that in terms of how you need, what your values are, or what your performance metrics are, or how you address those sorts of performance issues. It’s up to you as a business owner, as an organization to decide how you want to do that. Yeah, so long as you’re being open and communicative and clear, constructive with your employees. Yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  23:30

And as you said that having the boundaries, knowing what they can and they can’t there’s no, there’s no conflict, it’s all comes down to communication. That’s not sort of unrealistic is that there’s a relationship, right? Every single relationship was based on communication,

Laurence Mc Lean  23:42

Or speaking to clients or, or I’m training to advice that come into our team I talked about as if it was a wonderful person way you choose the same thing. Yes. And I can go really well for a long period of time, and then somebody doesn’t work anymore. Yep. And it’s maybe it’s not quite as easy to break up an employment relationship as it as a personal relationship. But the same sorts of approaches apply. And if you’re communicative in your personal relationships, you’re gonna be successful. And the same applies in your employment relationships as well.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  24:10

I think it’s really important to sometimes we kind of feel really worried. But if you’ve had somebody in your business for a long, long time, and it’s no longer working, which could which can happen in any relationship, as you said, it can be your best relationships in business relationships, I think we will look at your then nervous about sort of dealing with that because the person has been around for a long time, we don’t accept them. But the chances are, if you’re unhappy as an employer, they’re probably unhappy as an employee to and in some respects, it’s almost it’s kinda to have those conversations and to have those discussions and understand there really is a fit anymore. Because if there isn’t, and they do have to go somewhere else. They’re probably going to find someone where they’re happier too.

Laurence Mc Lean  24:45

Yeah, exactly. And often when I’m dealing with employees or employees are in difficult situations, and there may be there’s a really contentious point in terms of what we’re discussing a certain issue and what I often say is that it can actually be better for both parties for the relationship. be over for you. If you’re not happy in your work, your your employer is never going to be happy either. And as an employee, if you’re not happy, your employees aren’t going to be happy. So you do have both parties playing their part. And one party isn’t playing their part, no matter how good the other one is, it’s probably never going to work to be honest. And, and look, it’s a fact of life that not everybody is right for, for a certain role. And, and certain people thrive in situations and just saying people can can really struggle in that same situation. So it’s not a bad thing, necessarily, if a relationship doesn’t work out. What is what can be really difficult, is if you try to force that to work, or you try to jam a square peg into a round hole, essentially, yeah, so sometimes I think both employees and employers need to need to say, perhaps it’s time to move on. Or perhaps it’s time to make a fundamental change in the way that we do things. Because what we’re doing now isn’t really working.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  25:53

And I think going back to x or g, WC, that’s what the what the W is the one tried. And I think that even if you get you’re only capable of doing if you don’t really want to do it, it’s actually bad for both parties. Because you’re you’re into a situation where you’re not enjoying going to work, and you’re not going to bring the best of each other, the best value to the business, either. That’s right. And,

Laurence Mc Lean  26:12

You know, what was it last year, I think there was a lot of talk about quiet quitting. And it’s a really great example of that as, as you may be really capable person, because you’re not motivated to do it, you’re not going to do great work. And then you’re actually going to commit even more unhappy as an employee, because your employer is gonna start coming down on you. So a constant cycle, exactly, and then you’re gonna be even more unhappy. And then it’s goes back and forth forever. So, you know, if you don’t want to be somewhere, don’t be there as kind of the sort of advice that I would give to employees, particularly, but also from an employer’s point of view. They may think an employee doesn’t want to be there. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don’t. But what you really want expose opportunities, before you get to that point, to try to have a really constructive relationship to maintain that relationship, if you’ve done all of that, and it still isn’t working thing yet, perhaps time to move on. But before you get there, you’ve got to you’ve got to put it but if I don’t, basically,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  27:06

And as I said it, I mean, when we do the whole people analyze, I think I think that whole plus or minus is just an opportunity to sort of say, What can I be doing better? Because we as leaders have a responsibility to get the best out of our people. And so if somebody is underperforming, or isn’t, you know, is we’re having some challenges with you got to actually, first of all, find out what’s really going on for them, and what can we do to support them, because it could just I’ve heard horrible examples of people when they actually get asked, you know, what’s really going on for you. And they tell you something horrific, that is happening at home, and you cannot separate. I know, it sounds really lovely. There’s personal life, there’s professional life, there’s not there’s a human life through it’s one life. And so you know, what is going on at home will affect you in your work environment. And I think as an employee, it’s not our role to to solve that. But it’s to be supportive of that and seeing what can be done or what can’t be done.

Laurence Mc Lean  27:52

That’s right. And the Employment Relations, that the main piece of legislation, New Zealand that governs employment relationships is actually written in such a way that it places obligations on employers gives rights to employees, it’s built on a philosophy that is a power imbalance and employment relationship. So by by being constructed in that way, it often places the onus on the employer, to have a go at fixing that issue. And again, the employers that we see our clients that we see that are very successful, are the ones that are proactive, and the ones that we see often get into hot water, or the ones that are a bit more passive, and they let issues kind of wash over them until it becomes unbearable, unbearable. If you’re proactive about it, if you’re going to an employee that you see that is perhaps not performing as you expected, or these are valued disalignment, you go to that employee, and sometimes you’ve got to pull it out of them, you know, they’re not always going to be really forthcoming in terms of the issues that they have, be it at work or be it in the personal life, sometimes you do have to pull it out of them. But when you do, you can often see it often becomes very clear, I’ve got this really great solution that can roll out. And you do that and suddenly it’s already back to a really productive employment relationship. So you have to be proactive as an employer, you have to address those issues head on. You have to want to resolve them. You can’t just sit back and hope that she’s going to resolve itself because chances are it probably won’t.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  29:12

Yeah, fair enough. Okay, so the key the real key things are communication, communication communication, and and having sometimes a difficult conversations but with an open view to what might come out of it to us, right? Yep. So dealing with the issues bringing them to the forefront not I suppose not letting it fester is not the right word. Yet because you’re a small issue can suddenly be blown completely proportion. Communication is an interesting one. There is a propensity I would say in New Zealand to be a little bit passive aggressive in terms of communication, which means that email is kind of what the most favorite tools because you know, I can just write it and I’ve caught myself doing it times you know, you kind of start typing out an email and and realize even in the way that you’re bashing the keys probably means you’re not in the right state. You’re writing an email. I was here to catch yourself on that put email as well. Wonderful for recording, you know, absolute events are, you know, and clarifying things, but it’s not the best place to start, is it?

Laurence Mc Lean  30:07

No, absolutely not. And and, as you say, email can can be really clear in terms of every black and white approach, but it often will, you often lose the implication or you lose a subtlety of the message you’re trying to get to an employee or to anyone, really. So what we always recommend is you have an in person meeting, you discuss it with your employee, you can have an in person, even over the phone, or even by by zoom. That’s better than just by email. And then you followed up with an email after that. And email can be a good record of what was discussed as

Debra Chantry-Taylor  30:35

A confirmation of what post awesome clarification around some points, but not to employ

Laurence Mc Lean  30:39

Your chance to come back and say, I know that isn’t what I that’s not what I took away from it, or perhaps I’ve got a different expectation that allows you to kind of pull up those issues, but you’re never really going to be able to get across to you, for example, a values driven message you want to get, it’s really hard to deliver values over email. Yes. So having that in person, the opportunity to have that in person conversation to be able to deliver it with, you know, business owners are really passionate about what they do. They’re not in business, you know, often for the money, they’re in it because they’re passionate. And that passion comes across in person, it often doesn’t come across an email.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  31:09

I think I’m half German. And so I’m actually quite blunt. And I often catch myself, I catch myself writing emails a lot. And I haven’t even done the niceties that i How are you any of that stuff, and so it would be great. So and I don’t ever intend for it to be blunt, I don’t intend for it to be to the point is just the way that I compose emails. And often that can be taken the wrong way, because they don’t see. So I’ve actually I’ve even added a photo to the bottom of my emails just to remind people that actually they’re dealing with a human, because we know when we send off the emails, it’s like the the keyboard warriors, right, you’ve still got another person or the human at the other end who’s receiving that, and you’ve got to be careful about how they actually receive that ticket.

Laurence Mc Lean  31:43

And there’s lots of examples that we say we said all the time, actually, where an employee takes an email the wrong way, they they take it as a as an attack on them. And they take it as a as a demand, they’ve got to do this. And then when they when the two parties meet and discuss, it’s actually fine. They actually were both on the same page in the first place. So it’s really hard to get and we actually see clients who’s like things like emojis all the time as a way too. You can actually add some emotion or some subtlety to an email, perhaps, I mean, it’s never gonna replace in person conversations. But I’d be really conscious of that. That’s

Debra Chantry-Taylor  32:14

interesting, isn’t it? Because I mean, I think that particularly some of the older people will kind of go oh, you know, emojis are unprofessional. You can’t use emojis. I actually use them all the time, even though I’m old. And I do think it says a little bit of that sort of Yeah, trying to soften down something that I know might come across as a little bit sort of less. Yeah, a little bit more blunt than most people would say it and it’s and it’s not meant that way. So I use the smiley face or I use the he quite like the champagne cheers, one quite. Okay, so so it’s not unprofessional to use emojis in your email.

Laurence Mc Lean  32:43

For some business, they probably say what is

Debra Chantry-Taylor  32:46

A customer, for example, that’s a little bit different.

Laurence Mc Lean  32:48

You know, I think if you if you can’t, perhaps you can’t have that conversation in person or you are trying to deliver what could come across as a, as a heart message sometimes using those extra tools that you have, can can help to get across as I say that that more unspoken element of it, the human element of it. Absolutely.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:04

Okay. Working from home has become sort of this whole hybrid working model. It’s kind of interesting, because we had to change our business model quite simply for significantly just because we couldn’t get together and personal leadership teams. So we got into doing online, and you know, it works, I would still pick face to face over it any day. But you can do it. But more and more people and and personally, when I advertised for a job, I actually said it’s in person not negotiable. That’s the way I want to work. And as the employer, I’m allowed to choose the way that I want to work, right? Yeah. But if you’d if people who do choose to go in the hybrid model or the work from home model, it changes the dynamics of the teams doesn’t? It absolutely

Laurence Mc Lean  33:42

Does. And I think you’ve already raised a really good point there is that you’ve got to be clear from day one. But what your expectation is, if you’re going to have a hybrid model, are you going to agree on which days they’re going to be in the office and which days they’re going to be home writing, let the employee choose those. And if you let the employee choose those, it can be really hard later on to actually reverse that they actually wanted to come in today, particularly for a client coming in or whatever it may be. So it’s having those really clear that really clear expectations set from day one. Is it a fully from office roll? Is it are fully from home roll? Is it a hybrid roll for its hybrid? How does that work? Yes, yep. And then having policies and documents that support that, that you’ve got the employees signature on that you can that you can use if there is a dispute or if there’s a misunderstanding later on, because, you know, sometimes expectations will be very clear at the start with an employee. Six months, 12 months go on, and suddenly you start to drift apart in terms of what each party expects. And if you can come back to a founding document that sets out what the expectations were from day one, you can keep that same sort of consistent approach the whole way through. So I think we can primers it can be a really difficult situation. Particularly if you know the market is the way at the moment. It’s a very employee driven market. Employers are often having to give extra benefits to employees to attract the right staff that you want. Work From Home was was was one example that employees are still using to attract staff. But if you can offer that to employees, you’ve got to ask yourself, are you comfortable for that to be in place for the entirety of the employment relationship?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  35:13

Because that’s what you agreed to in the beginning, that’s what can’t you can’t check? Well, you can change the rules midway through, but you have to do it with agreement with other people. You just don’t? You none, it wasn’t Yeah, yeah, the

Laurence Mc Lean  35:21

Only change attended unilaterally. Really, it’s quite an in depth process, we’ve got to go through a full consultation process with the employees, you particularly you might, you might have to make the role redundant, if they don’t agree with him, potentially redeploy them into a new role that has different kinds of conditions or models of working, that can be a really not not just a really complex and resource intensive process, but also potentially legally a risky process to take as well. And sure, and often, changes like that are done because of the that the company is in a difficult circumstance, the last thing you want to do is add more risk by having to, to change terms that employees are really attached to. So you absolutely have to think about the entirety of the relationship when you start and not kind of think short term and say how this works really well for now.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  36:07

People right now, so we should be prepared to stick with that decision.

Laurence Mc Lean  36:11

Is it gonna work for you went a year or two years or five years or 10? years? That’s

Debra Chantry-Taylor  36:14

Right. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. And so, I mean, I know I’m quite strong in my views. I do like working in office. I like when people in the office with me, is it okay for employers, still to say this is a full time role in the office?

Laurence Mc Lean  36:26

Absolutely. Employees, as you said, employees have the right to decide the way they want the business to be run, the way they want their employees to work. Yeah, and employee doesn’t like that they won’t take the job. Yeah. And if and actually, if you try to compromise on your values, or compromising on your vision too much just yet an employee in your often setting yourself up for failure, because that’s going to come to a head, that issue is going to kind of explode out into a big mess, basically. So So I think getting the right people on from the start being very clear about what you want, how you want your business to be run, what sort of employee is going to work really well in your organization can make for a much more fruitful relationship later on, even if perhaps it takes you a little bit longer to find the right person to start

Debra Chantry-Taylor  37:08

Short. Now you talked about obviously, as an employer, we can’t change those rules, given that we employ them on that basis. What happens when the employee wants to change the way that things happen? So I have seen this happen quite a lot. Where you know, let’s say you have been given a fictional example, but you’ve been employed on a we’re working in the office five days a week, and then all of a sudden, the employee sort of says, Well, I would like to work from home for two days a week, how do you deal with that, as an employer? Well, employees

Laurence Mc Lean  37:32

Have the right to ask for that, right to submit flexible working requests through the Employment Relations Act sets out a process for the way that employees can do that. And employers have an obligation both under that section in terms of flexible working, but also under the general obligation of good faith to be open and communicative to consider that, but mostly to agree to that. Okay, so as an employer, what you should do is make sure you’ve received that make sure you’ve got a process where employees came at those applications. When you receive one, you consider it, you look at it from the employees point of view, you discuss it with the employee, perhaps here, if they’ve got more elements to add to it in person, and you consider it you know, with an open mind, but you don’t have to have to agree to it. So so long as you’ve gone through that process, along, you’ve considered it you’ve given it genuine, genuine thought genuine consideration. If you decide it’s not right for your business, that’s fine. You don’t have to do that as an employer. But you’ve got to go through that process to consider it in the first place. You can’t just say no, no, no, we’re not taking any applications from heart. We’re not taking any applications to change ours. Right? You’ve got to be open to it. Yep, don’t have to agree. And in fact, you know, the ex says that an employee can’t challenge a decline of a flexible working request. But they can challenge when an employer hasn’t considered it. Right. So so the military says you have to consider it. But you don’t have to agree to it.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  38:47

Okay, fair enough. And I suppose it’s also I mean, if you if the employee is a good employee, you might want to look at some some other way of making it work. And so it is a negotiation process. So we’ll discuss all the possible options, we can look at what the actual resolution is,

Laurence Mc Lean  39:00

You know, you might have a certain limit that you’d be willing to accept, and the employee might want to go beyond that. And you can negotiate about where that we draw that line. I would say the only other element you’ve got to be aware of, though, particularly if you’re giving extra benefits to good employees is that you also have an obligation to treat all your employees fairly, not sterile. I mean, you can treat employees in disparate ways, so long as there is a strong justification in doing that. So, you know, perhaps you do give employees an extra bonus, or a commission or extra rights will be enough. That’s, that’s fine to do. So long as you have a trial where you can show these are the performance metrics, I’m basing it on another lower performing employee that asked for that same benefit and got declined for it. So reason show, help your performance wasn’t wasn’t as high as other employee that that is getting this benefit. So you’ve got the paperwork, you’ve got the processes, you’ve got the objective kind of model to to, to show that, you know, you’ll be in a good position. If you don’t, you could have potentially a disparity of true MCLI for employees, that’s a discrete claim that employee can raise.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  40:03

Right. Interesting. So I mean, I think in general, what I’m taking from this is that the law here says that, you know, we have to act with what’s right word of openness. And we’ll be willing to have the conversations rather discussions to see both sides of the of the equation, the point of view, and to Yeah, to work together to get the best result.

Laurence Mc Lean  40:25

That’s absolutely right. And, and the employment relationship is built on this, what they call the obligation of good faith, that implies that applies to both employees, and to employers, and you’ve got to be open and communicative. That’s what faith means. And action has to be open and communicative. Your employees should do that with you, as an employer. And as an employer, you should do that with your employees as well. And if you do that, chances are you’re on the right track, you’re going to have a successful business, and you’re probably going to also be legally compliant.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  40:54

Okay, um, gosh, I got so many question want to ask you. But I think that’s given us a fair insight into because I think I think the biggest learning for me throughout this this conversation is that you can be a values based employer, and you can treat values exactly like you would any other measure, we’re in the business. And so don’t feel afraid, as long as you’ve been really clear about what they are up front. And being really clear about what that means. Because it’s not just but I value is humbly confident, you have to actually explain what humbly confident means your work perspective, what does mean, what it doesn’t mean, set some boundaries around it, and then it becomes a measurable just like any other

Laurence Mc Lean  41:22

Measurable, you continue to track it throughout the relationship. Yeah, you can absolutely do that

Debra Chantry-Taylor  41:26

Perfect. And then if we’re gonna make any changes to any part of their employment agreement, if you like, it has to be done openly, it has to be done with communication, we have to be willing to listen to both sides and come to a decision as Ryan

Laurence Mc Lean  41:39

And that’s, that’s where that process kind of driven approach comes. There’s the information that has already processed, driven approach. Yes. And that process is really about hearing the other side of the equation. And if you do that, then you can probably make, you know changes where you can probably do, what is it you want to achieve? Yep, so long as you do it in the right way through the right process. And the process

Debra Chantry-Taylor  41:57

Doesn’t it’s not spelled out in terms of you must do this as an it’s more about a framework, isn’t it that says that you need to have done these certain things. That’s right.

Laurence Mc Lean  42:05

I mean, that’s a bit of a mixed model, I can some of the complications of New Zealand employment law is that some of it isn’t split spelled out in legislation, but maybe it’s about out and case law. So, so certain processes probably are a bit more, there is a bit more kind of a clear steps, you know, the steps 1234 spelled out, other processes perhaps are a bit more open to different approaches. But also, what the important relationship that also recognizes is that different sizes of employee ORS can also result in different processes. So if you’re in New Zealand, or Spark, or is having a really resource intensive process, and there’s an expectation that you do that, there’s actually been a recent case that said that public sector organizations have a bigger obligation, then perhaps smaller, you know, SMEs, smaller nations, you know, if you’re a small sole trader with two or three employees, then you’re not going to have the same sort of resource base to be able to go through this really intensive process need to go through some process, not necessarily to the same level or to the same depth, it might be expected from a larger, larger organization. Okay,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  43:08

so what I’m taking from this, as you know that you have to follow the process, it is important that you have the conversations as soon as possible if there’s one issue is going on. And they often informal conversations or start off with before you take it to any kind of formal process. And then in reality, if it starts to get a bit sticky, you’re best to get an expert involved, because it sounds like it’s not a sort of black and white, this is the way things go, it can be very much down to interpretation. And depending on what size you are, what the

Laurence Mc Lean  43:35

The prices can change based on how long the employee has been employed for or what sort of role they do or how the organization is. So it can be really difficult to understand all of your procedural obligations as an employer, you don’t have that sort of professional help or official assistance kind of steering you in the right direction. Sure.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  43:51

So it tells us about employee shorter, because what a white, what does it Why does employee short exist? Yeah, well,

Laurence Mc Lean  43:57

We were just talking about great example there, we really exist to help our clients have really successful businesses. So one of our visions is building better businesses, building fairer and safer businesses, we want to help our clients succeed, and particularly New Zealand, we focus mainly on small and medium size enterprises. So those more you know, Mum and Dad, for lack of a better term business owners, who are probably really passionate about what they do. They’re really passionate about driving trucks or building buildings or baking cakes or looking after kids or whatever it is they do, yes, perhaps not so knowledgeable about their legal obligations, particularly from an employment relations view or health and safety point of view. So what we want to do is help to ease that burden, take some of that burden away from our clients, so they can focus on what they’re really passionate about. We do we have a number of different service elements that we provide that help clients do that. But it’s all you know, it’s all in the means of making them able to be compliant in a way that works for their business. And in a way that means they have to spend less time energy and money on it than they might otherwise have to. So we really want Now try to focus on the things that you’re really passionate about, and leave the legal easily, but leave the messy stuff to ask basic

Debra Chantry-Taylor  45:05

Health and social stuff. So I mean, the idea is that we call them a fractional employee, which means that you’ve kind of got somebody who’s on your team who’s not there full time, but that you can call upon as if they were part of your team as and when exactly, and

Laurence Mc Lean  45:19

We actually operate a 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, adviceline allowed, we get clients that call us at 3am in the morning, get clients that call us on Christmas Day, or New Year’s Day. And we’re available the whole time to help our clients with any issue that they have. Because we know that anytime, yeah, and you know, we’ve got a lot of tradies or construction organizations or businesses, and they are often on site, you know, kind of 7am to 7pm. And they do all of their admin at 10pm at night, and we’re really there to help them when they want to do it. But also to do it in a way that helps them to be successful. So if we can really make sure they’re being compliant without compromising on their vision or their values as an organization, then you can have a really successful business. I think you don’t want to get away basically, yeah, no,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  46:04

That’s fantastic. Okay, um, quickly, three top tips, what were your three kind of top tips for privately owned business employees,

Laurence Mc Lean  46:10

we’ve kind of spoken about communication already. Yes. So I won’t beat that dead horse too much. But it’s really I think about having policies, paper trails, documentations contracts, not only is a legal obligation, but it’s also really important from, you know, making sure there’s clear obligations or clear expectations, and really having a successful relationship. And keeping those current, as we talked about, start changing those as you go along. So that’ll be number one. I think number two is really about making sure that you get it right from day one, we have a lot of clients in we can help out with that. But it’s a lot harder to fix a problem after it’s become a problem than it is to stop the problem happening in the first place. So being proactive, for example, making sure you’re recruiting the right people spending the time at the at the recruitment stage, rather than when it becomes a problem stage. You know, maybe overcoming that that typical Kiwi culture of being a bit more laid back and being proactive about it. And I think it’s, it’s really about engaging training, making sure your staff are on the same pages as you are, if they are, if you’re all moving the same direction, you’re gonna have a really successful business, and you’re gonna have really happy employees that are going to want to be there are going to attract further employees to your organization, and are going to give you the best that they possibly can. So you’ve got to engage them, you’ve got to give them the opportunity, you’ve got to train them and support them to be successful. And it may seem like a big burden at the start, but it’ll pay off in the long space.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  47:32

Absolutely. Yeah, given that we talked about, you know, that there’s the resources that they need us and they need a computer and they need a phone. But they actually need time, more time and training. And yeah, to get them on board and keep them in the loop in terms of what’s going on. It’s right. Yeah, absolutely. Perfect. Okay, cool. So what is the ideal client for employment? What does it look like? And we

Laurence Mc Lean  47:50

Mainly focus on SSC, it’s small and medium sized enterprises. And we’ve got a we’ve got clients from all industries, basically. So industry wise, will help you basically, we’ve got clients from trading construction, all the way to law firms, for example, as well as clients as well. But we’re really looking at that kind of SME, or even potentially micro SME type size. So maybe 10 to 20 employees. Having said that, we’ve got lots of sole traders, we’ve got some clients with 1000s of employees, so we can help at that end. But it’s really about those kinds of middle growing organizations that want support, perhaps don’t have the resources to get their own in house lawyer and house HR advisor or, you know, to be able to pay a law firm to draft all their contracts. They want their support, but they want to do it in a way that supports the growth that we were looking for those sorts of clients. Those are the sorts of clients that really formed a really good relationship with us. And we can really help succeed.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  48:44

It was really important to us a little bit like using a virtual assistant agencies. And by having a team of people which employs your hands, you’ve got lots of different specialists, right, which means you actually getting you’re paying for, you know, a fractional part of a role. But you can actually tap into the various different areas as and when needed. You got health and safety threats, you’ve got disputes.

Laurence Mc Lean  49:01

And so we, you know, we’ve had all the way from the formation of the documentation will go out to an employer site and draft for the documentation. I talked about our 24 hour, a day, seven day a week advice line. Yeah, we’ve got a legal team that can help if you get those really sticky, messy situations, where we’ve got a team that can come in and visit you face to face as well, if you like. And kind of to the point you made earlier as well, a really diverse set of advisors within our organization. So you know, I come from a employee focused background I working at Community Law, we’ve got clients, employees that come from unions from large organizations from medium sized organizations that that come from all walks of life, some have qualifications, some come from retail backgrounds. We want to understand our clients businesses, and if we do that we can help them succeed. So chances are we’ve got someone that can help you know, that

Debra Chantry-Taylor  49:49

Is fantastic, too. I honestly there’s, this has actually been quite reassuring for me because I’ve always thought I’ve always found that the I’ve worked in Australia. I’ve worked in the US I’ve worked over here and I was at the New Zealand employment law was probably one of most difficult ones. But I think that at the same time, what you’ve actually made me realize is that there is a way through it. And it really is about being open and having that communication. And just making sure that you’re, you’re on the same page. And when you’re not that you resolve it, yeah,

Laurence Mc Lean  50:13

It’s not about trying to make it’s not trying to kind of bundle the employment law to the side and trying to work around it. No, no, if you can work with it in unison, yes. I’m really happy to succeed. It could not have to be a barrier, that you have to jump over. And if you do that proactively, then you know, who knows what the limits are.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  50:28

That is fantastic. I look, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate you coming in. Thank you. And if you want to contact Lawrence, you can find him I think on the employee. Sure. Website. Yeah,

Laurence Mc Lean  50:36

For sure.co.nz where you can just search and closure on Google and come up.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  50:40

Fantastic. Thank you for your time.

Laurence Mc Lean  50:41

Thank you. Thanks.