The Power of Hope: How Debra Overcame Fear, Transformed Life Forever | Debra Chantry-Taylor | Ep 117

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:00

So I mean, hopefully when I work with people, we always I ask them to prepare for the worst case scenario as well as the best case scenario. So I reckon having a plan B is essential in any business at any stage, think about what is the worst thing that could happen to your business? And what would you do if it happened? Now, you might kind of go, but that’s negative thinking, that’s not going to help me get to where I’m going, we’ve got the plan to get to it, I’ve got the 10 year target, we’ve got our one year goals, but we don’t have to think about what the worst thing is, as well. And by having that plan B, it means that when something happens, because it will happen, something will happen to your business, at some point, I guarantee it, whether it be a recession that you can’t control, whether it be you lose your major clients, I mean that I can go through the whole, all the scenarios I’ve been through, something will happen where you’re suddenly have to change the way that you’re doing things.

Ryan Melton  00:45

Welcome to the next episode of better business, better life. We’re here with none other than the host, Debra Chantry-Taylor. How are you?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:53

I’m very well thank you, Ryan, how are you?

Ryan Melton  00:55

Good.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:58

It’s good. It’s good. I think it’s really interesting. So Ryan, I just agreed that he’s gonna overtake my podcast or take over my podcast today. And he’s gonna be the host. So the floor is yours.

Ryan Melton  01:09

So everyone listening, you’ve missed out, you didn’t really get much chance to hear about Debra, and what you’ve achieved and sort of how you actually help. So I think setting the scene is always useful. So you were just playing around with your toys. Eight years old. Yeah. You know, EOS.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  01:28

Yeah, that’s exactly. No, not quite well, I did have my first business at 13 years old. My parents were not from particularly wealthy background. And so they were always really good at making sure we have what we needed. But if we wanted anything, we had to raise the money to kind of buy what we wanted, rather than what we needed. And so I have always worked. I think nine years old was my first actual job. But then at 13, I started my own little business at school, and manufactured synth sounds really funny right now, given the Technology, I do wonder technology, but it was little, little note pads, and writing pads and envelopes. And they had hearts all over them from a real I love hearts. I’ve always loved hearts. And so it’s like little, little mini kind of writing pads that you could write little messages on and he put them up on this envelope. There’s a little heart that you sealed it with. And I sold those to other people in my class.

Ryan Melton  02:16

What was your business plan, he said, worked out what he did.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  02:22

I knew none of those things. And all I knew was I didn’t have money. I wanted to make some money. And we did other things, too. We did some printed T shirts, we did some a little badges made for like a Pleistocene type stuff that we’d actually make animals and Christmas type things. And so we had lots of different products, there was just basically anything you could make, that we could sell, we did so back in those days, because remember, I’m 53 years old, printing onto T shirts was not that easy. You literally had to print stuff out onto an inkjet, like transfer, and then you would iron it onto the front of your shirt. And then that’s how we made the T shirts. So no business plan, no target market just knew that we had to sell stuff. So we’re always looking for the next thing that would sell to make the money.

Ryan Melton  03:01

Did you do a funding round? Like how did you

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:03

No didn’t I mean, I don’t think I knew an awful lot about business back then. So I just kind of just winged it and yeah, had some fun with it. But then, of course, my parents been very traditional, insisted that I actually go and do a science degree and get myself well-qualified. So I could find myself a good husband. So I then went on the traditional path of becoming a biochemist.

Ryan Melton  03:27

Housewife.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:28

 Housewife.

Ryan Melton  03:32

You can make some next level stuff, right? I’m gonna do

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:35

Salutely, Funny, I was talking today about some of the things we used to do in biochemistry. There’s not many drugs that we have created in a biochemistry lab and how to play with.

Ryan Melton  03:45

Wow, okay.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:46

 Yeah.

Ryan Melton  03:47

On that. Yeah. Because, yeah, I’m free flowing the listeners, I’m sure. We’ll be surprised given how structured and well set out your podcast as.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:58

It came out. It was really interesting as we just moved from grayling, just recently Freeman’s Bay and gralen Park, we’d often be going for a walk. And we’d see all these little canisters on the floor like little stainless steel metal canisters. And Steve said to me, you know, what are they? There was little kid picking up and these like bullets. I’ve got all these bullets. I’m like, No, they’re not. I know what they are. And they’re basically the little canisters that you use in the whipped cream dispensers. And it’s used without the cream. And it’s basically nitrous oxide. And nitrous oxide is laughing gas that they use in in dentists to kind of knock you out. And I remember when I was doing my biochemistry degree, we had some experimentations were making things and of course, we had access to to nitrous oxide. So we actually tried nitrous oxide to see what it would actually do. And so it’s funny that he’s like, how do you know this stuff? And it’s like, because, you know, we tried a few things, ones in biochemistry.

Ryan Melton  04:45

That’s how they do it, ya know?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  04:48

And that’s where there’s lots of them. Because each one if you think about you can buy I think we googled it offers you can buy 24 nitrous oxide canisters for $24. So $1 a piece, and one of those will will a helium balloon. And often people will actually pass a helium balloon around just take a bit. But if you’re really heavily into it, you literally take a whole canister as a knock and it knocks you out. And then you eventually come back around again.

Ryan Melton  05:12

You know the latest term for this?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:14

 No.

Ryan Melton  05:15

it’s called a Nang.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:16

Is it? I did not know that. There you go. See, I didn’t learn that it was jus go.

Ryan Melton  05:20

Oh, yeah, you’re onto it sooner cuz I walked in these house parties, and there’s all these canisters on the ground? What crane? I mean, what do you feel when you gotta get like you just feel lightheaded. And

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:38

So you must maybe you haven’t had it in a dentist. So we’re we’re back in our day, and the dentists use it a lot. And so it literally just knocks you out. And you go unconscious for a while. I didn’t like it at all. I tried it once I kind of went this what’s the point because you don’t know what happens to you. When you’re knocked out. I just feel like you’ve lost a whole chunk of your life. You know how long that was for, but it knocks you out and then you wake up and you feel kind of lightheaded. And I know it’s sort of one of those things that who knows. I’m about to say. We tried lots of things when we were doing biochemistry. So we’ll learn about Amyl nitrate we lowered shallow I’m assuming you know what that is. Let me know. And we’ll nitrate is actually a drug that relaxes muscles, often used in various sexual practices. Yeah, but we can make this stuff in the laboratory. So we would we would try these things. And again, that was another thing I kind of get it. I learned that I don’t really get most drugs.

Ryan Melton  06:30

Yeah, I mean, you’re pretty wide as a general rule of thumb like

Debra Chantry-Taylor  06:34

Yeah, don’t need too much extra help.

Ryan Melton  06:37

Yeah, that’s Wow. Okay.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  06:39

So you guys, that’s my background. I am I am officially a biochemist and food technologist. And I know lots about different types of drugs, drugs and chemical reactions in the body. Yeah.

Ryan Melton  06:49

Well, what’s what’s the fun thing? So I’m gonna do it. I’m like, you know, like, you put two things together and it makes it so hydro. Hydro thermic I know hypothermic reaction. It goes really hot and then blows up. And

Debra Chantry-Taylor  07:05

To be honest, I don’t read everything. liberatory so didn’t have anything kind of at home. But you know, the whole coke thing with a mentor. So that’s that effect that you can get? I’ve not actually ever tried it.

Ryan Melton  07:15

It’s not a drag you down.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  07:16

Yeah, yeah, sorry. Interesting. Of course, I’ve my one of my first jobs out of uni was actually selling drugs, but not in the sense that you’re thinking of legal drugs. I mean, I was a pharmaceutical medical rep for many, many years, I sold antidepressants, antibiotics.

Ryan Melton  07:33

Wow, I feel like antidepressants is not a hard sell. If you’re allowed to prescribe it, I guess you got to sell it to.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  07:40

The doctor. So if you think about back in those days, there were many choices about antidepressant so I was dealing with doctors, psychiatrists, hospital based psychiatrists, hospitalized doctors, trying to convince them that the drug that I was pushing was the best drug for treating their patients.

Ryan Melton  07:55

Wow. Though, thoughts on the medic, medical? Are they just glorified drug dealer?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  08:03

It was, it was fascinating for me because it was a really well paid job. It was not particularly regulated over in Australia. So over here, you’ve got farm Mac that stops you from advertising and from, you know, going and sort of bribing doctors, if you like we will pretty much bribing doctors by taking them on flash weekends by giving them gifts by telling them all the wonderful things about our drug whilst doing it over a very fancy expensive meal at a restaurant or taking them out to some long weekend and we had psychiatrists flown in from around the world to talk them and then they would we would wine and dine them. And I’ve got some stories to tell from those two doctors are not quite as sensible as we’d like to think they

Ryan Melton  08:37

Ahh no, I find that the more serious and structured the occupation, the less serious and structured the personal life is.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  08:44

So I remember playing baseball with an empty bottle of wine and I think we had some tennis balls not quite sure where they came from. Whilst being dressed in our robe in a very, very flush hotel, the observatory over in Sydney while having our robes from my room on backwards dress like surgeons because it goes when you put rubber backwards you like a surgeon? Yeah, that was a fun night. Doctors and nurses in real life.

Ryan Melton  09:11

I’ve heard of these bowls that they go to once they celebrate and finish Yeah,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  09:16

These were these were obviously but they were psychiatrists. So they’ve actually not just a GP. They’ve been doing many, many years of study. Very, very smart people and a lot of fun. Oh, it was it was a fun time. It wasn’t it wasn’t actually a really a raucous time. It’s more fun time.

Ryan Melton  09:29

With doctors incentivized to sell more,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  09:33

Not directly you couldn’t actually pay them an amount of money to sell them to prescribe more. But like I said, you you gave them little gifts you took them away you you know you looked after them.

Ryan Melton  09:43

So like have theory speaking you. They say you don’t give a commission, but like this one was the top salesperson and you’ve got all the numbers you’re in. Yep. So I just wanted to celebrate you’ve just done so well for us that like we got this weekend away.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  09:59

Yeah. So we can Was there certain rules around it, you couldn’t give them physical gifts over a certain value. So in the old days, when I first started, you can almost anything. So you could literally kind of go, Hey, look, you’ve been a great prescriber. Here’s a Ferrari example. Not quite but, but then they brought in rules, there was rules on what you could actually use it for were computers as well. So we used to give away sort of computers for their offices, but then they brought in roles that was very much around, you could only give them a certain amount on it, the limit was like $50. So then we’ve had pens and notepads and little gifts that were under $50. So they can actually do that. But it was no rules around taking them away as long as was an educational component. So we basically bent the rules to you know, we take them to the flashiest places. My first trip to New Zealand was actually a trip to launch a new drug over in LA, I was living in Australia, we got flown to New Zealand in order to launch this new antidepressant drug. And we got put up in the hotel in Christchurch that fell down in the earthquake, sadly, and it was like, it was just such an amazing experience. The amount of money spent on that weekend was almost unlimited. We had a 24/7 convenience room where you could literally order anything that you wanted during that time at the conference. So once the formal conference finished, and believe me, you and me there were there were dinners. There were banquets there were we had a whole castle built inside the hotel and we had street performers come along. When you got your room in the evening was actually a dress in your size to be medievals, you could go downstairs to do the medieval outfit. And in this convenience room, it was like what do whatever you want, it’ll basically get paid for by the company. Wow. So it was pretty decadent back in those days. And thank goodness, I’ve changed that because I think at the time I was young, I was pretty excited by that it was kind of fun to do all those things. But now I think, yeah, that’s probably not a great way to actually be selling product as

Ryan Melton  11:44

No, no. What’s the psychiatrists worth? Like? Let’s say they’re good producer like yeah, being relative, I

Debra Chantry-Taylor  11:51

don’t know. Because we never really got access to data around how many units were sold. I never did the maths. I wasn’t that business savvy back in those days. All I knew was that, you know, you had to set up the ladder to get your bonuses and keep your job. So yeah, we knew what what how we were doing compared to other competitors. We knew which were good prescribing areas, we didn’t get down to specifics around doctors.

Ryan Melton  12:13

Wow, this this is such a dangerous topic and such a very,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  12:17

This could destroy my reputation. You know,

Ryan Melton  12:19

I think the more you can destroy people that are never going to be clients, the better as long as canceled. I’m probably gonna get too close to the line of being canceled. But I can make a phone call I can do I have a business? So yeah. All right. So you find wine Dine, these famous, you know, more good producers. Yep. And then this is fulfilling. Oh, what was your turning point? Well.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  12:46

No, he got sick. That was there’s been two defining moments in my life. And one of them was actually a way before that when I was working in a laboratory, doing my science, having finished my biochemistry degree, and really not enjoying it, but loving working with people and really good at motivating people to achieve results. So we had, we have what we would now call scorecards, where we had a big whiteboard, we were keeping track of things, to make them perform better. And I got offered a job by another. And this was actually a pathology company. So I was running a pathology company laboratory, I got approached by the opposition saying, hey, come work for us in our laboratory. And I went to my boss at the time. And he said to me, Hey, why are you going to go and do this somewhere else? Do you enjoy what you do? I said, No, Jeff, I don’t like what I do. He said, Well, why would you go and do it for somebody else? And they’d pay more money. He said, But debris, you don’t enjoy it. It’s like no, not really. So what do you enjoy? I love people of talking to people, I love motivating people. He said, Well, why don’t you do something different? I said, don’t know what I’m going to do. He said, Well, I just don’t want you to go into the same thing again at another place just because it’s more money. Why don’t you come and join us as a sales rep or liaison officer. And so that was my first career defining moment because I was going to be I could have gone to another laboratory and manage their laboratory. And who knows that whole sliding doors thing my life could have gone down the track of I could not be a world renowned pathology laboratory manager. Yeah, those are those are the first major defining moments. So that’s what got me into sales. So he literally put his his job on the line because I was the youngest salesperson ever employed. And I went out there and I started selling pathology services and dealing with issues around pathology. Then I got poached by the pharmaceutical companies, more money, much more flesh job, you just heard about all the perks that we got to. And I did that for about seven years. And I was really, really good at it until I got bored. And then you know, when you spend seven years waiting in hospitals waiting in doctor’s surgeries waiting to see the person you talk to, I just couldn’t stand it anymore. It’s like oh, this is just a waste of my time. So I started finding innovative ways to actually communicate with them, get them on board what I was doing that didn’t involve literally going in and waiting for an hour so in a surgery waiting room to get five minutes were doctors time. And that’s not really allowed in the pharmaceutical industry. They kind of expect you to go door knocking and see eight doctors a day and that was what was required of me and I wasn’t doing that so I got caught out and And I remember going into the office for the meeting and they said, Where were you on Wednesday or 2pm, blah, blah. So I don’t remember, as well, according to your phone records you were here. But according to your CRM, because we had a CRM back in those days, you were at this doctor in this place, I went, well, the phone records don’t lie. And I explained what I’ve been doing. And they went, No, we want you to go door knocking seeing doctors, you’re fired. And I was already I was sick. I was 23 at the time, and I had to go back to my 2324 24 back to my new husband, I got I just recently got married and tell him that the fantastic job that flew me around the world and took us on these long weekends that were all expenses paid, had a beautiful company card, huge salary and great bonuses. No longer existed. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So did I, I didn’t make the choice. Myself per se. I basically choice because I was bought. And so it led forced me to do something else.

Ryan Melton  15:52

Yeah, but yeah, that was an important lesson. Like for me a while back where I thought people sell like me, which is, you know, no finesse just work. Just like talk to 40 people. 40 people a day get rejected. And then there was a sales lady that was my boss can work with me. And she was like, she stopped by 10 people closed eight of them. And, but couldn’t sell with me, because we’re going one for one where she would sell to people she had recognized as someone that would buy because she’s already done the time work yet. So it’s it’s interesting that they stifled your creativity that could have actually been in the best interest

Debra Chantry-Taylor  16:33

could have been. And it actually changed my career. Because I suddenly I realized what I was doing was something called Marketing. I was like, oh, marketing, that sounds like fun. And being there. I think I’ve been an entrepreneur my entire life. And I think about it. Next bright, shiny object. Okay, cool. Let’s go do marketing, and got myself a degree or diploma in marketing. And so doing some marketing stuff.

Ryan Melton  16:51

Yeah. Well, just on that, what was some of the things that you did with the psychiatrists? Well,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  16:56

I had a lot of fun, because what I found was that they were they’ve been visited, like by two or three reps a day. And they’re all They’re talking about boring as batshit white papers. And this is why a drug is more efficacious than the other drug. And this is what it doesn’t do. And well, I will. And I thought, how boring must it be to have this bill coming in, just to sell it. So I actually developed a basket full of toys. And I would walk into the surgery, and I would actually take the basket with me into the psychiatrists, I go Take anything you want from here. And in that basket, there was things like, there was toy cars, there was toothbrushes, there was I’d made a cassette tape, that’s how long ago was it cassette tape of love songs. So it was a cassette of of love songs, there was kind of what else was in there, but though they were kind of main ones. And if they picked one of the objects, first of all, they got to keep it. And secondly, I told a bit of a story about, you know, what, why that had any relation whatsoever to the drug that was trying to sell. And so the toothbrush was about, the drug I was selling at the time, was one of the few antidepressants didn’t affect your sex life. And so it was all about, you know, if you have an antidepressant does affect your sex life, you’re gonna want a toothbrush to make sure that you could actually, you know, complete Yeah, and then assemble them of some type, it was like, you know, so it doesn’t affect your sex life, in terms of motor function. That was the car driving a car doesn’t affect how you drunk drive your car, had something around asleep, that kind of babies dummy combo that was for that. So I just had all these different things. So they’re just there was just a way to kind of start a conversation that wasn’t boring as batshit about, I’m a drug rep, and I’m here to show you some drugs. And here’s my latest white paper. And I found that they actually genuinely wanted to see me. And then when I couldn’t get in to see them, I would send them things in the mail. So I’d have the same kind of things, but it would like a bit of a campaign. So I’d send them I love songs mixtape that I made on my own cassette recorder and model the printer or things on my inkjet printer and sent these things out to them. And I also took the time to kind of get to know their receptionists and the people who manage the practice and the people who were at the, you know, the psychiatry was at the hospital, and just started building relationships and having fun with dealing with them rather than going around being a boring sales rep. Yeah, yeah. Wow. That’s cool marketing. So is that cool? I like that.

Ryan Melton  19:13

I was talking to a guy the other day and he he recorded he wanted to appeal to the inside exporters. And so he recorded a video describing what he did you put it on a blank, whatever you call it. Cassette, VCR,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  19:26

VCR. Wow. Okay, let’s say like a video. So Betamax and VHS which one was.

Ryan Melton  19:31

The VHS right.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  19:35

Betamax was a better quality, but it didn’t win. Wow. Yeah.

Ryan Melton  19:38

Shout out. Yeah, and he just said something like, I know what he did, or something like that. They catch it and just sent it to him blank. And they would rush home to watch it without a wife being all alone. Yeah. It’s interesting to see how marketing was a different point. So yeah, was it something else interesting in the market, or like what was your first marketing thing? I After that, like, did you get into it?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  20:01

No. So what was really interesting, I mean, I went and did my marketing diploma, and I thought it’s gonna be really easy to find a job, I started doing my marketing diploma. And I thought, well, it should be quite easy to find a job. But I realized it wasn’t quite as easy as I thought it would be. So I went and applied for basically temporary sales and marketing assistant type roles. So I had to pass typing tests. And if you’ve seen me type by type, the two fingers, it’s not particularly good. But I’m fast, because I’m faster, everything that I do. So it’s fast, reasonably accurate, pass the typing tests, even though I’ve made loads of mistakes, I was able to correct them just as quickly got put into a formal driving firm as a sales and marketing assistant. And my role was to literally add data into stuff into their database and get things sent out to them. And because I get bored really easily, I was sitting there going, this feels like a really sort of difficult way of doing this. I wonder if we could do it a little bit differently. And so I started developing different ways of printing our own materials in house. This was back in the days when color laser printers cost an absolute fortune. But I managed to convince my boss or a business case, I put to him that if we’d actually got these color laser printers in-house, we could personalize everything we sent out, we could print out just what we needed to print out rather than having to send that whole catalogs or having printed elsewhere. And it’d be more personalized message to the people. And we didn’t actually have when I say there was a car, it wasn’t a CRM, we would type onto lit envelopes to send out to people. I said, Why don’t we put a CRM because having worked for a multinational pharmaceuticals, I mean, what CRMs were, so I developed a database in access for them. And we basically put all of our customer information in there. And we actually bought a laser printer, we printed everything in house. So we send out personalized things. And I just changed the way they did stuff. And so a few weeks into being there, the sales and marketing manager quit. And I went to my boss at the time Russell and said, Russell, I think I can do that job. Anyway, what makes you think you can do it? I said, You take me out for dinner. And I’ll tell you why I think I can do it. So he took me out for dinner, I’d put together a proposal, which I found the other day when I was cleaning up my house. I was basically here’s why I think I can do it. Of course, it was an easy sell for him because when he asked me what I wanted in exchange for being a sales and marketing manager as opposed to sales and marketing, Lackey, essentially, all I wanted was a company car because I didn’t have a company car anymore. So in exchange for a four-wheel drive company car, he got a new sales and marketing manager and I got to do the job that I wanted to do.

Ryan Melton  22:17

Wow. And worst case, you got free dinner, because it didn’t take me right. To lose Exactly. Just on that because like, I think that’d be a common error like Alexa mosey analyze the people that watch him, and he’s successful in business marketing, and it’s people that haven’t started a business yet, we’re thinking about, okay, so what about like communicating what you want your boss, you know, like, how do you position yourself, so you can either get a raise, get an opportunity, because you’re quite conscious about that? Yeah, I know, you can pass,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  22:50

Just thinking, I don’t know that I ever was looking to get a pay rise or promotion, I just always wanted to improve the way things were done. Like, if I think about all of my jobs were like, This is great. But Shawn would do this better. I was always looking for better ways to do things, and ways to motivate people. Because when I became the sales and marketing manager, it wasn’t just about sending stuff out to potential clients, it was actually about managing the sales team. And it’s like, so you know, how do we make sure that they are being effective in terms of what they’re doing. And I learned so many lessons in my seven years in multinational pharmaceuticals gives you a huge understanding of the really best practice way to do things. And so we had lots of sales training. So I don’t know that I ever was looking for self promotion. I was more, I want to do things better. And I realized that the further you got up the food chain, the the more influence, you had to make changes. So that’s what I do

Ryan Melton  23:42

For you to work. I mean, I can see why the sales thing didn’t work. And I can see why. Focusing on how you can improve and do things better instead of focusing on how, why you deserve it. Yeah, the a different way to approach things. Yeah,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  23:55

I think that’s just been a natural part of my life. I don’t know that I led certainly deliberately go that way. It’s sort of just a, I’m always looking like how do I how do I make things better for people?

Ryan Melton  24:05

That will I think that’s worth unpacking? Yeah, yeah. Cuz a lot of us say it. Yes. So we want to help. Yep. And I’m always curious as to why like, what about you, or your experiences in life mean you care more about others?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  24:23

Gosh, I don’t know. Because I don’t know that my parents were particularly that way inclined. In fact, they used to tease me because I would always be the one that rescued the bird with a broken wing or, you know, looked after the kid that was being bullied at school or I was always looking for the sort of the underdog and trying to make them better. And I think as I’ve got older, I’ve realized we’d love to want to help themselves. So I don’t bother doing that anymore. I help people if they want to help themselves, not people who are just a victim, you know, wanting some sympathy or wanting somebody to buy into their victim story, but others don’t naturally do it. And even though I got teased for it, I just enjoyed seeing that when I help people and You often got help back as well or you just I don’t know. It also feels good helping people. I really enjoy helping people. It makes me feel really, really good. And so for me, it’s like actually, it gave me joy to do that.

Ryan Melton  25:11

What? You said something interesting. I was the underdog. We were the underdog growing up.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  25:16

Yeah. I got bullied a lot at school. Yeah, so my mum, my mum was German. My dad was English. We were not very well off. And so we often relied upon hand-me-down clothes to get through, you know, get through life I suppose. And with mum being German, they hand me down clothes came from my cousin’s in Germany. And Germans tend to wear bright colors but stripe stars really bright colors in which people tend to wear gray, black, white, boring plain. So I always kind of had the I was stuck out like a sore thumb. And also, because I was particularly smart. I don’t know how i Mom was pretty smart. So I’ve maybe got it from her. I was also always the top of the class without even trying. And so I got teased for being a girly SWAT for being teacher’s pet for being wearing funny clothes for even having a funny accent because my my mum spoke Queen’s English because she was German dad spoke very. He’s got really good with good English. That’s terrible. He’s done really well, because he was actually brought up in Surrey in London. And he was part of the Royal Air Force as well. So they were taught you know how to speak when you go meet the Queen and stuff like that. So I was I was brought up to speak particularly well, obviously, I’ve lost that quite a lot since I’ve been in Australia, New Zealand. And a lot of the people that were was grew up in the Midlands, so they didn’t speak quite the same way. They had quite a different way of talking in a different way have a very strong Brummie accent. So I was always like the odd one out that got teased and bullied for being different.

Ryan Melton  26:43

Because I had this theory, yes. The most fulfilling thing you can do is to help a version of yourself in the world. Right? So the problems you’ve witnessed or experienced yourself? Yep. So I’m wondering if there’s, if we use that as a filter, because we’re still testing, it seems Yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  27:01

And I think it is true, actually just thinking about it. Because if you think about the business stuff, the reason I get passionate about helping other business people is because I’ve had those. I’ve had their successes, but I’ve also had the terrible failures. And I don’t want anybody to go through what I went through. So it’s about being able to help other people to avoid those pitfalls. That was what makes me happy is to let them hopefully, I think they’re going to have some heartache, because otherwise you don’t learn. I think you’ll learn a whole lot more from your failures. But there’s levels of heartache. I really wish that a lot of people didn’t have the levels of heartache that I went through. So just shallow those out a wee bit. That will make me happy.

Ryan Melton  27:39

Yeah. I think just being a human is how chip, you know, like you’re dying. And everyone you know, your love all day.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  27:47

Yes. Yeah.

Ryan Melton  27:48

You can’t avoid it, even if you’re living a privileged life.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  27:51

Exactly.

Ryan Melton  27:52

So I know there was I think, from what I’ve seen in myself and other business owners, they seem to have to transcend belief systems and skill sets. So you came from an impoverished background for lack of a better word.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  28:05

Yeah. No, I wouldn’t say impoverished. I mean, we had we had a good life. But it was but money was tight, that we were never living the life where everything came to you on a silver platter. Definitely impoverished. I mean, there are people in the world that are deaf, definitely impoverished, we were not that at all we were, I would suggest, lower middle class if we had to use British language in that we didn’t want for anything, but at the same time, there was not plentiful money, we worked really hard to get what we had. So mid mid class, no lower middle class, definitely not middle.

Ryan Melton  28:41

So how did you was there a transitioning moment around feeling deserving of money or success or vilifying money because, you know, these capitalistic upper class people while I’m wearing my colorful jury steps from my cousin, things that you had to work through?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  28:59

I think I didn’t do too much later in life. But I think that I’ve always had an issue with money because of the way that my parents viewed it. So even when I had my first business and I was employing staff, my parents would always ask me when we’re gonna get a real job, and they would always whinge about the capitalists and you know, how their business owners are or no, they talk about big large corporations who had shareholders ripped off the people who worked for them and you know, they had they had this real negative opinion about business and that businesses shouldn’t make money and it should all be distributed almost like a bit socialist if I think about it, but they weren’t they’re very right wing in most of their other beliefs.

Ryan Melton  29:35

What a reason it’s there. My mom lives in a commune for lack of a better word. Oh, yeah. grows it and trust they grow their own food and I lived in a hippie community for like, a year. Yep. And attend. And so that that is quite like the vilifying of people that are successful. What was a turning point for you to either feel deserving of success or to vilify it less what what changed that and you’re

Debra Chantry-Taylor  30:00

You know, there was a particular moment, or I can’t quite pinpoint something that that was why it changed. I think that I learned over time, that in order to help others, you actually need to be successful yourself. So if you want to be able to give back, there’s no point in giving back, if you don’t have enough in your own cup, or if you haven’t got enough in your oxygen mask, you know, that whole thing of put your oxygen mask on first before you save others. And I think that I realized that often I was giving when I wasn’t even giving to myself. And so therefore, I would feel exhausted all the time. And I loved what I was doing, I would feel exhausted, because I had nothing left to give, but I was still giving. And so I realized that actually, the best way you can help people is kind of like a modern day Robin Hood principle is if you can actually make a lot of money, you can use that money to then help people who perhaps can’t afford it. So there are people who can afford my services. And it’s really great that they can actually do that. And same when I run the Event Center, we actually charge high end prices for using the Event Center. Because what that meant was it enabled us to actually run events for people who couldn’t afford that high end stuff. And it wasn’t that, you know, the people who paid for it still got massive value out of it. So they were happy. I was happy. And the people I was happy was happy. So it was kind of like this change of viewpoint is that actually when you’ve got when you’ve got access to funds, you have the ability to do more with it.

Ryan Melton  31:17

This some interesting things around the power of no and boundaries, because at least the archetype you described was doing all these amazing things. For others. I’m depleting myself to a degree Yeah, now it’s okay for me, too. So how do you sounds like is on the people pleasing side or wants to not offend? How do you what are you use to navigate the know, or the letting people down?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  31:42

So I’ve learned a lot of this in more recent times, I think EOS has actually helped me to kind of really solidify it as well. It’s like, if you’re really, really clear on why you exist and what you want to do, then you’ve got then you can start to set boundaries and say no to things because you actually have to ask the question, Does this help the needle shift? Does it help them make the boat go faster? And if it doesn’t, it’s perfectly okay to say no. And I will struggle with that. Because I’m a people pleaser, most females are, but I’m particularly me because I like the underdog want to help. And so you know, you find yourself saying yes to things. It’s like, actually, the This isn’t making the needle gophers. It’s not about me personally. But where I want to be in the long term future, is it helped me towards that? And if it’s not, you have to go? No. And then I learned that no, is a complete sentence. Or if you really want to be British, no, thank you. You don’t have to explain why you’re not doing something. Or you can explain it the way you just go. Hey, no, thanks. That’s not for me, or No, thanks. That’s not fun. But as soon as you start saying, I’m too busy at the moment, or I’ve got other things on, you’re giving an opening. That’s almost like, you know, it’s like all men who are trying to date somebody if you don’t actually say bluntly, no. So just think so if you can get really clear on why you exist and what you’re doing, you can you can find it easy to say no. And just say, No, thank you. That’s not for me.

Ryan Melton  32:55

So in a way, you’re making your y greater than your resistance to saying no, yes.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:00

Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Ryan Melton  33:02

I think of going to France walking on Paris, and they say those Eiffel Tower? Yes. Yeah. He say no thing. No. And they keep coming. Like no, I don’t want to. Yep. But you there’s extremes as well, we say Right, no, too strong and aggravate the reaction. Yeah. So I think something you’ve talked about prior is navigating uncomfortable conversations. Yes. And use toys for that, too.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:27

I do use those for that. Other listeners are thinking of right now. Fluffy animal toys is what I use to help navigate those conversations. Yeah.

Ryan Melton  33:35

Yeah. No relaxing drugs,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:36

No relaxing drugs, no, nothing like that.

Ryan Melton  33:39

But how do you lead say someone recognizes is an issue? Yep. They need to have that conversation? Yep. How do you prepare mentally? And how do you execute?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:48

So for me personally, if I know I have to have a difficult conversation, I have to write what I want to say down. I’ve learned that if I just go in there because I wing most things, you know me, I wing almost everything. But if I’m having a different conversation winging, it does not work. Because all of a sudden, the person I’m speaking to might get emotional or upset about it, and then immediately go straight into that. Oh, it’s okay. Let me look after you. No, no, I wouldn’t want to take any further. So by writing it down, I’m very clear on what I want to say why I want to say it I can actually clearly articulated by writing it down. And then I use that to refer back to when I’m actually in the conversation. I also always start with I’d much rather stick my head down a toilet and have this conversation, but I need to have it. And so like a little bit of humor in there around, you know, this is not, this is not really great for me either. And then when I’m working with others to facilitate those conversations, I again, try and bring some fun into it. Don’t make it too serious. Try and not make it personal so that you’re actually talking about the situation, which is why we have the toys because you can talk about the elephant that I literally use. I’ve got a sacred cow out there. And the other day, I was working with a family business and I obviously won’t mention names because this is very confidential, but I had to address something that was a sacred cow in the family business. And so I literally grabbed the sacred cow and I held it like a child I would like in front of me like a protective Teddy. And when you know, you can’t shoot your dogs, I’ve got the sacred cow. But I need to talk to you about the sacred cow that is happening in this room. And so by doing that, it doesn’t necessarily make the conversation easier. But it does, at least the other person recognizes that you too, are a human being, you’re not doing it to be nasty, you’re not doing it to, you know, create havoc just because you’re doing it for quite a genuine reason. And I suppose, I can’t imagine what that image of a, an overweight 53 year old holding a sacred cow looks like. I should imagine that when they see that they’re kind of going, Okay, this is actually a little girl who’s who’s tackling the difficult conversations. And I think that’s where the toys can come in handy. It doesn’t mean that I’m not a mature adult. It just means that actually, you’re giving yourself a little bit of permission, permission to have what I would call almost childlike conversations, because you think about children, they tend to approach things, almost without a filter, don’t they? When they ask questions, and they forget being asked by one child, you know, when do you baby, you know, I’m just fat. But children don’t have this filter that kind of go, you know, to not say that. And so I try to bring that childlike curiosity into what I do. And I try to make sure that people understand that, you know, we’re doing it from a place of like a child actually wants to be loved wants to be held helpful, but just sometimes it’s not how to do it.

Ryan Melton  36:22

I can see how that would work. I was sitting with a clinical psychologist on the beach, and they were telling me about the concept of flipping the lid with the brain actually flips the lid. Yep. In a sense. So your access to logical thinking is impaired when you’re in fight or flight. Yeah. So if you’re diverting a person’s, I guess, direction with this disarming toy, yeah, it helps a lot.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  36:45

Yeah, yeah. And I didn’t even know I’ve talked about being triggered, we have to recognize you’re being triggered, while can be very careful that we know you have to recognize that other people are being triggered to, and giving them that space to deal with that emotion. Because it’s it’s really difficult. I mean, I’m, I think I’m quite fortunate and lots of work around self awareness. Again, not perfect, but I can tell, usually, when I’m treated this morning, when I came into the office, nothing was going right. And I was literally it’s kind of stomping around, and then you can see yourself like you lift yourself out of yourself and go, Deborah, you’re stomping around, you’re talking a million miles an hour, you’re throwing things around the way, you’ve got something going on to deal with it. But I forget that not everybody’s had that training. And so for some people, they don’t know that they’re even in that. So they’ll be very careful and facilitating that. I’m, I can’t help them mentor it. And sometimes because just certain things will trigger us based on previous experiences based on what’s going on. So it’s like, how do you allow them to have time to take it away from being personal. And to have as you said, the flip the lid, give them a chance to actually reconvene their thoughts, and I hadn’t thought about it. But I think the toys do help with that.

Ryan Melton  37:48

You know, there’s a quote, A Pittacus man doesn’t suffer by a crisis, but by his interpretation of it, ya know, find out very rarely Am I stressed? Because of anyone else? Yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  38:01

Well, and I, again, not perfectly by this by any means, but the only person you can actually control or the only sort of emotions you can control are your own. You know, there’s nothing worse than when you’re in the middle of a fight with someone they go calm down. Read read through the worst thing you can say. And in reality, that person, the only person who can make that person change the way they are reacting is them. So conversely, the only person you can change reacting is you. So how you change your reaction to something can change the outcome of it.

Ryan Melton  38:34

There’s I think there’s something else interesting in the toys. Oh, yes. Well, yeah. Toys almanzar. We got it now.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  38:41

Good, good, good.

Ryan Melton  38:44

You doubled down and what makes you you? Yep. So on that. So there will be people corporate gotta wear this dress does do the sort of way good. Just as well. You’re conditioned as a young lady wearing things against what everyone else thought you should. Yeah. And then the parents said, you should just be this and they.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  39:00

Actually got asked to change my dress code. When I was doing the first liaison sales job. They said to me that I need to go out and buy a new wardrobe. So I had that conditioning from a very, very early age that you have to do this and dress this way. And this is what life expects of you.

Ryan Melton  39:15

Wow. Yeah. So on that because I find the more I double down on me. Yep. The more the stronger emotions that evokes and people that never would have got along with him. Yeah, but also you convert haters, if you just inquire as to what emotion is leading them to project it. I’ve turned a lot of followers on social media just being like, What makes you think that how do you think it is better? And then they’re like, You know what, I’m sorry. And then they start investing and helping and defending.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  39:48

That’s good. Good. Good approach. Yeah,

Ryan Melton  39:49

Just so bring me in. Yeah, good, good. So what some, how do you rationalize in your head on being yourself and is there a reward for being yourself or should be people just get back in their little box.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  40:02

I’m a big advocate for not being an old box these days, but I spent a lot of my life in a little box. And there was lots of pressures and when like from say, being told, I should wear my first kind of real job out in the real world, being told that I should do science being told I should find a good husband being told I should have children, all these things that you know, from. And especially I think, even when working in business, I worked in a male dominated industries, there was a, an expectation of what I should be like, but I think I created a lot of it myself. So I think that once you start being told that early in your life, you start to create all these things that you should or shouldn’t be. And I’ve talked about us on social media for a long, long time, I would never wear a dress, if you’ve met me. 10, when I probably want it 20 years ago, I was always in a pinstripe suit, and a shirt and cufflinks for. a while before that, I was a little bit younger than I think. I do having shoulder pads in my first kind of sales rep. So maybe not in sales rep job now, but I mean, it was, I felt like I had just even when I wasn’t in a suit, I would be in jeans and a shirt with cufflinks, it was very masculine, which is an even really, really short hair back then too, which is kind of fascinating. So I felt that I think I felt like I had to fit in with the people around me. And what I realized was not only is that you’re not being authentic, which means that they’re not seeing the true value that you bring to it. But it’s also really difficult being different people that different people expect of you. So you know, if you’ve got definitely I’m in Jena use a great example where he talked about the fact you know, you might have your friends and family and they’ve got this expectation of you, you might have your your your family you might have your friends are gonna different if you went to uni would have a different expectation the people that you work with them a different expectation. And if you’re being a different person to all those people. Imagine how hard it is to manage that because it when they all get in a room together, suddenly Dipper goes, which one which one? Anyway, I’ve had multiple personas for years trying to please everybody in front of fit in. And when you’re actually just being authentically yourself, you don’t have to do anything. You don’t have to apologize for anything if you don’t like my dress, and I wear dresses, and I was like I quite like dresses, I bring the dogs because I like my dogs around me. And people say to me, you know, you can’t do that. So professional, but that’s who I am. So I’m gonna pretend to try and be somebody that I’m not anymore. And that’s quite freeing, like free. And also I think from a from working with the prospective, you’re actually getting the full Debra as well, because I’m in my element. I’m not trying to pretend to be anybody. I’m just doing what I know that I actually do really well. And, and I’m not worried. I mean, I do sometimes catch myself. I work with some religious companies, I’d be very careful. I don’t want to bless. I don’t mean to offend, but sometimes I just I just get it wrong. You know, I kind of and I have to be careful with my swearing because that’s not fair. I don’t have to be careful with it. I try to be respectful of the people that I’m working with and try really hard but I can’t help it. I’m British, every once in a while a fox gonna come out because that’s what we do. You know, so it’s hard. But I in general terms I don’t worry so much about anymore. I usually kind of go, sorry, I shouldn’t have said that. I’d be don’t mind. And then most people kind of get that. That’s fine. You know,

Ryan Melton  43:12

Murphy, listen. You heard it here first. Okay.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  43:16

So here’s a really interesting, about 40 years old. I remember I was having a really, really bad day at work. And I came across this meme that was literally had a picture of a younger with a backpack going into a wardrobe. And she was saying fuck this. I’m off to Narnia. And I thought that’s a Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. I love Narnia. This is hilarious. This isn’t always how I feel today. So I posted on Facebook, I got an email from my father. And it said, Debra, we cannot believe that you posted that meme on Facebook. What will our friends think of us? How you know how can you use that language in a public environment where you can see it? You know, we’re really disappointed and we can’t believe that you’ve done this and we can’t believe what our friends will think. And I sat down I kind of went oh my gosh, looks at my dad. And then I thought about and then she went back I said Dad, fuck off. I did not actually swear in my in my thing. If you notice I use a meme. I did not actually swear myself. I just thought it was funny. Here’s why I thought it was funny. Basically.

Ryan Melton  44:12

Yeah. Yeah. So there’s a few things in there around femininity and masculinity. Yes. And you know, we don’t have to go patriarchy route. But is there a place for femininity and business and how is it supported and nourished in the sense that you double down on a certain way or as you can generic?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  44:38

So I’ve got really strong opinions on this. And I know people don’t believe don’t necessarily agree with me, but I actually think you should be able to be feminine. I think that’s absolutely fine. I wish I’d known that earlier, because I would have been much happier kind of wearing dresses and being quite feminine. But I don’t like fighting for feminine feminism. You know, I’m a feminist in deep down in my sort of beliefs. What I don’t believe infighting and trying to sort of put people down or trying to aggressively challenge them on their behaviors, because I actually think that that then puts them in a defensive position. And so they’re not likely to listen. So when I was on the I was on women on boards for a long time, and we would publish, we publish certain papers that showed that actually, females were better at being directors, companies that had female directors did better in business, I would share all this information from all over the chemical, but man bashing for me. And I was like, Well, you know, I’d much rather we talk about the parts, that’s, that’s the positive stuff, the positive stuff is women actually helped put boards performed better by boards with women on them have companies perform better, but then we’re talking about things that, you know, it’s I don’t know, remember exact examples, but I always sort of said to him, I’d much rather we focus on the positive stuff rather than sort of man bashed, because I think if you’re, it’s like, when you say, calm down, the last thing you need to do is calm down. So if I say to you, you know, you shouldn’t be doing this, and you’re gonna get sort of triggered by that. So when I used to work in very male dominated environments, I do it kind of subtly, and with a bit of fun. And I did it in a way that hopefully, it didn’t really offend people. But I made it pretty clear. So I talked about this on a video the other day, it’s like actually rubbing in my first board meeting, and I was the GM at the company or part of the senior leadership team, whatever it was, and then we’re going into the board meeting, and they literally so good, you’re here, you can take the notes. And by the way, the coffee is over, then could you pour us a coffee. And so I kind of wait, you know what, I will pour your coffee, and I will take the notes. But just to be really clear, these are tasks that we can all do. So how about I do it this time? And next time? Maybe you could do it right? And so it was always about, you know, don’t let I could have gotten a con. I’m a female, you’re just picking on because I’m female. Why should I do to the notes, but it’s like, Well, okay, I don’t mind doing it. But let’s just be really clear next time round. Somebody else can do it. And that was always my approach is kind of trying to do it in a way. I think I, I used to when I used to work in the engineering industry, I actually had to go out into the warehouse, and I’d sit and have I don’t drink beer, but I’d still have a wine with the boys while drinking beer. And initially, they were kind like, oh, you know, what are you doing out here? So I just come and have a chat. Oh, well, this is kind of a blog. So it’s like, well, we’ll just be one of the blokes. And I would actually just trying and there was no hope you know, don’t look at the naked girls on the water. I don’t care about the naked girls. And I genuinely don’t I think the Chinese side who will take the naked pictures of girls down as part of who they were. I didn’t we didn’t worry me. I’d much rather that they were themselves as well. So why would I go on about me being authentic and me being who I am, and then be telling other people what they can and can’t do? So. I don’t know. I’m a I’m a feminist. I believe that there should be equality in terms of doing the same job. Why wouldn’t you get the same pay? I do believe that. It’s nice to have a door open for me though at the same time by a man. So I’ve got these real mixed feelings. I certainly don’t believe in shooting people down

Ryan Melton  47:46

The saying in the military, since it’s the longest way round is the shortest way home. Yeah. Okay. I like that. Cuz like in World War One, they just dig a hole and go straight. Yeah. So that led to a lot of casualties. And same thing with them how to win friends and influence people something there’s no right or wrong in an argument. There’s only someone that feels wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. So yeah, I often don’t know the theory behind these things. But I just do them intuitively because I kind of go actually, I went out what works. In theory base. Okay. So there was there was a an accolade as well, we were like youngest GM for intercity bus or something. Yeah. Like, a lot of people that you’re looking out for in the most of the men?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  48:33

Yes, yeah. So we had to work 220 staff on the bus drivers, obviously, because indices the the national coach network over here. So we had, we had some we had some females in the call center. But generally the operation side of it was pretty much men and also the board was all Yeah, the board was all made. So the chairman of the board was a male, or the board of directors were male as a CEO, and then they’re not. But again, it’s like that they hadn’t been I’m very fortunate. I’ve done a lot of work in sales and marketing hadn’t been exposed to sales and marketing the way that I had. And they hadn’t been exposed to the way that I like to motivate and inspire people to. So yeah, it was it was a big job for a young female. The interview was fascinating. Because I got interviewed first of all, by just the CEO then I had the chairman of the board and one of the directors come in, and one of the questions they actually asked me was have you ever fired somebody as I had? So I’d explained you know, what I did and when how we’d done it, and it’s like, wow, okay, this is interesting. I’ve been fired people I think they’ve got some some plans around, you know, restructuring, whatever. But yeah, it was a it was a great job, which will be so much about, you know, dealing with some very set in stone ways of doing things and how you had to work with people to change their opinions of things. So, you know, they didn’t believe there was any merit in having a consistent brand. They weren’t sure that it was a good idea to change bus drivers uniforms or change the, the messaging on their buses, there was all kinds of things that I tackled with them that were We actually made some significant changes that turned that business around from being flatlining to actually back to growth. And we even won a contact center award for the top Contact Center in New Zealand against the likes of the other travel players. So a New Zealand cuantas some big players out there. So we, we did a good job, but it took gentle, I will say, is the saying an iron fist in a velvet glove. I think that’s probably what I am, is I’m actually you know, I’m not, I’m not afraid to have the difficult times I’m not afraid to tackle things. But I’ve learned to pick the battles, and do it in a way that the people think it’s their own idea, rather than forcing it because back at the council, I was considered a bulldozer. And that’s when I used to go in, there’s got to go, we’re gonna get shut down, we’re gonna get stuff done, they go slow down, you know, it’s not bulldozing people can’t stand not getting things done was talking about to the city, which is my next job, I kind of learned that actually bring people on the journey. Let them think that that won’t let them have some input into it, it actually is their idea, as opposed to just forcing things, counsel, though. So there’s 18 months of my life worth 18 months of my life.

Ryan Melton  51:06

Just on that, on that system side of things, what leads to a culture where mediocrity is accepted.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  51:13

I think it’s when you actually allow people to do things. So if you think about often in family businesses, you might have a family member who just has a job because they’re a family member. And if they don’t do what’s expected of them in that job, you’re basically setting the bar, right, the bar is down here, which means other people will actually do it. I had a situation at one of my businesses that I was working at, where we had somebody who was blatantly kind of disobeying the rules and pushing the boundaries. And they were letting them get away with it. So if you let them get away with it, what does that say to everybody else? That’s the bar. Yeah, so I don’t know, I believe that’s a little bit of it. And then it’s also around a lot of people, particularly entrepreneurial businesses, the founder has got the idea of the vision really strong in their mind, they know what they want to achieve, but they haven’t managed to communicate that with the rest of the team. So people don’t understand how what they do fits into the bigger picture. So if you haven’t shared that, and they don’t understand how they fit in, then they just become workers, worker bees, I suppose just doing what they’re told, as opposed to actually buying into what you’re trying to achieve. So I think two things, you get the vision in place, and you’re really clearly articulating, if people understand how their role fits into that vision, then you have to hold them accountable discipline, accountability, so you actually get the traction to achieve it. And you’ve got to have, you know, guidelines and people have to follow those guidelines, you can’t let anybody get away with not doing it, you got to walk the talk at the top. And you don’t make sure every person on every level is actually following what we’ve set out as our guidelines, and we call them core values or the measurables. Whatever it might be that we’re doing. Yeah, otherwise, people are just workers.

Ryan Melton  52:53

Yeah, that’s awful. Yeah. I think in theory, like people crave it in the sense that it’s something they know, like, so I’m used to me doing things and not outsourcing to others and trusting in them. And because I’ve been so obsessively a technician for so long, I might have a competency that’s, you know, higher than them initially. Yep. But because they do it all the time, then they’re the ones that become exception. So on that the transition from I don’t know where the pain comes, is it like 15 employees is the first one man band, when does it start becoming like Oh, systems,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  53:29

I think it happens when you start to get I don’t I call them levels because I don’t want the the whole idea of hierarchy per se. But when you start to get, you know, sort of a leadership or a management team, and then people who are working under those various functions in the business, you get a bit of complexity there. Suddenly, it is not as simple as well, Ryan started the business, he told us what to do every knows how to do it, you actually start but you need to have some structure around that to make sure that it was actually delivered consistently. And yeah, so it’s probably probably early is probably early enough when you add three to five people to start thinking about it. But certainly once you get to that 10 to 15 Mark, you’ve really got to have proper systems, proper processes, ways of keeping good long track ways of the way of your way of doing things. Otherwise, then we’ll start falling off. Because you can train two or three people you can work with four or five people once you get more than that. It’s becomes difficult.

Ryan Melton  54:22

Yeah, it’s gonna get interesting by we get to that point. I think you’ll get there. I’ve done the I’ve done the train 15 salespeople within train leaders the lead part. Oh, yeah. And they told me the system. All right. I’ve never made the system and it’ll be interesting when it gets there. Yep. Okay, well, we’ve done a solid a solid stint there.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  54:43

Yeah. Three minutes. 53 minutes.

Ryan Melton  54:51

But it’s been that’s the thing. I didn’t know a lot of these stories. When people have the opportunity to understand sort of who you are, where you came from, and that you earned the way you view the world. Yep. So on that, whether it’s someone that speak, okay, let’s speak to young Debra are listening, oh, you got something.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  55:07

That’s what have to say. I mean, that’s that’s been my history when I was working for other people. And I think that is, you know, made me understand better how to run business but running businesses, for other people, I got to learn a lot about how to run business. And then of course, having my own businesses is a completely different kettle of fish. Because even when you’re a general manager, in an organization, or even a paid CEO, you still don’t you’re normally in a company that’s well funded, that doesn’t have to worry about paying payroll every single week does have to worry about people following the right procedures and processes. I know there’s a different level of accountability when it’s actually your own business. So even if it’s a big established business, you still always got that sort of feeling of that weight on your shoulders, when you’re working for somebody, I don’t know that you have quite that same understanding. So even the transition from managing somebody else’s business to managing my business can be a big one. Hmm.

Ryan Melton  55:57

It’s so exciting.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  55:59

Oh, I love it. I’ve loved all our successes and all the failures, because I think that both have taught me different things. You know, I know how to turn a business around and get growth back again, that’s been what I’ve done in all of my employee life. I’ve done it with startups on myself. But I’ve hit hurdles and hit the ceiling, if you like and failed. So I also know that everybody hits the ceiling at some point and can’t get past it. And if you don’t surround yourself with the right people and get the right help, you will go down.

Ryan Melton  56:29

So let’s say let’s say there’s this business recession come in things, you know, kind of lay off all these people. At the moment, they’ve resulted about, what what, what do you do as someone there’s by their side, because you seem emotionally invested in the outcome? And the thing that’s probably a testament to the value that you bring? Because you care? Yes. What do you do like, and you’re balancing caring and doing what’s needed? What are you okay, she hits a fan, Debra hey, my business, Fox, what are we doing?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  57:01

So I mean, hopefully, when I work with people, we always I ask them to prepare for the worst case scenario as well as a best case scenario. So I reckon having a plan B is essential in any business at any stage. Think about what is the worst thing that could happen to your business? And what would you do if it happened? Now you might kind of go, but that’s negative thinking, that’s not going to help me get to where I’m going, we’ve got the plan to get to it, I’ve got the 10 year target, we’ve got our one year goals, but we actually have to think about what the worst thing is, as well. And by having that plan B, it means that when something happens, because it will happen, something will happen to your business, at some point, I guarantee it, whether it be a recession that you can’t control, whether it be you lose your major clients, I mean that I can go through the whole, all the scenarios I’ve been through, something will happen where you’re suddenly have to change the way that you’re doing things. If you’ve already worked through a Plan B and gone worst case scenario, what will happen? What can I get rid of in terms of expenses? Where could I get new business from? What the structure need to look like to actually manage this? How am I going to cope with the fact that I have, you know, at the event center $24,000 of rent every month that had to be paid? Whether we were operating or not? If you know that and you kind of go, I’ve got that? What do I do? Can I sublease the space? Can I go so think about all the different possibilities, you can then put that pen away in the drawer, and you may never have to use it as much or you’ll definitely have to use it at some point. But you’ve kind of got it covered. So then when you actually hit the the tough times or the mate loss or major client or, or something happens, you’ve already thought it through because like you said in the fight or flight mode, when you’re there and something happens you lose that major client in the US it was 80% of your income. And you haven’t got a plan but it’s a first we’ll go straight into flight fight or flight mode, you’ll be triggered you were kind of panicking, you were trying to make decisions in this absolute panic state. If you’ve got a plan B. Once you’ve taken a few breaths, calm down, take a clarity break you then go back to your plan and go Oh, that’s right. I’ve already thought about this. I’ve already thought about what I need to do. So now I can logically start working through that and go okay, so what are these things do I need to do? I did it just recently, I we are going to go into recession. I’m kind of going if we go into recession, but we will do well, we will we’ll do a recession. There’s a downturn in the economic market. We’re already in that right how big the recession will be? I don’t know. But I’ve actually gone through and got Okay, so what does that look like? If this happens, worst case scenario, what are the things I would have to do to actually change to get through it? Because the worst the best lesson I learned was when I didn’t have that plan B that’s when you start you get emotionally attached to the business you start to make decisions that aren’t the best decisions you get yourself into an absolute blind panic you’re stressed you make the worst possible decisions but then knowing I’ve got a plan B now it’s put away I don’t intend to ever use it but it’s there so if I need to I can you know once I’ve got over the initial shock or stress and go right okay what I need to do now and I’ve got that nice well thought through plan

Ryan Melton  59:46

Pretty similar the military they drill it yeah till you know what to do when you without thinking.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  59:50

Yeah emergency or whether to go to civil civil defense. Yeah, what to do an emergency if you know what to do. You’re what does it call it kicks in that you just automatically Yeah, That’s the one the RET so the so you listen to it you go okay, cool, I’ve got that sorted I know how to do it. So I’m not saying you should focus on the negative but if you know what the negative looks like, you focus on the positive but if a curveball comes you kind of go okay, got it.

Ryan Melton  1:00:15

So people listening to this that might want to start thinking yep, yep. Where do they find you how they find you?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  1:00:21

All this experience are not so good at selling, as you well know, which is why you came in to help me. I am an obviously I’m a very unique name Debra Chantry-Taylor D E B R A  H. Chantry-Taylor. Nobody else in the world has that name. So I’m absolutely one of a kind that in the past I’d be picked on and bullied for that. Now I’m going one of a kind isn’t that amazing? I’m different everybody else. But also if you just go Debra debra.coach that actually shows you all the things that I’m involved in. So the podcasts that we do the newsletters that we have the books we’ve written, all that kind of stuff. Everything is there all in one place. I hope that’s what I tell people anyway.

Ryan Melton  1:00:57

Yeah, so it’s stuck, let us know. Yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  1:00:59

And then also people I you know, email wise. I’ve got the longest email in the world I think but if you just go Debra I’ve got the one that us well, what is debra.chantry-taylor@eosworldwide.com. Just go debra@businessaction.co.nz that will also work. Yeah.

Ryan Melton  1:01:16

Well, thank you for letting me come on your podcast.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  1:01:21

That was that was quite fun. Yeah. That’s pretty much it.