Process does not stifle creativity! with Jeff MacGurn - Episode 47 of Better Business, Better Life!

Debra Chantry-Taylor  0:12 

Welcome to another episode of Better Business Better Life. I’m your host, Debra Chantry-Taylor. I’m passionate about helping entrepreneurs and their leadership teams get what they want out of business and life. On the show, I invite successful business owners and expert speakers to share their successes. They are open and honest about the highs and lows of business and also life as a business owner. We want to share those learnings with you to inspire you, but also to help you avoid some of the common mistakes. My hope is that you take something from each of these short episodes that you can put into action to help you get what you want, not only out of your business, but also your life. So good morning, and welcome to another episode of Better Business. Better Life. Today, I am joined from our guests from San Diego. And that’s Jeff MacGurn, who is from business online, which is a Digital B2B Marketing Agency. Is that right, Jeff?

Jeff MacGurn  1:03 

That is absolutely correct, Debra. You got it.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  1:06 

Welcome. Really pleased to have you on board. Thank you for joining us.

Jeff MacGurn  1:09 

Thanks for having me.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  1:10 

I’d love to hear a little bit about yourself, Jeff. So let’s start with your professional and personal best. And then we’ll hear a little bit about your business and what you do, both in your main business, but also your little sideline that you’ve got going as well.

Jeff MacGurn  1:23 

Sure, yeah. Um, I’ll start with my personal best. My personal best is I don’t have a ton to be super proud of, I suppose. But I do have a three year old kid. Well, she’s about to be three year old in April, a little three year old daughter. And despite my best efforts, she’s turning out absolutely normal, she’s completely healthy, which is amazing. If, if you know me that I’ve been able to keep a little human being alive with some help. And she’s just, she’s just amazing. And then professionally, I was part of a team that started and built a digital marketing agency to be about 250 employees. And then we sold it to one of the largest agency holding companies in the world. Had a you know, very, very nice transition there and sort of helped kickstart my career. And now I’m working on hopefully doing it again.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  2:21 

Excellent. Okay, so tell us a bit about business online. So B2B Digital Marketing Agency, but what, what is it exactly that you do and with whom?

Jeff MacGurn  2:31 

So, Business Online is a B2B Digital Marketing Agency, we focus purely on companies that are, that are b2b companies. And we can take over and manage their pay media, they’re creative, they’re analytics, almost any piece of the digital marketing needs that they, that they may have, and ideally, take the next level and help them accelerate their business quickly. And that’s part of our value proposition is performance accelerated or speed devalue.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  3:02 

Perfect. And so how many staff do you have in the team now?

Jeff MacGurn 3:05 

We, when I started, I think we had about 35. Now we’re at about 70 people, I think, yeah. And, you know, I said.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  3:14

Well, that’s about two years, isn’t it? You’ve been there for about two years.

Jeff MacGurn 3:16

That’s right. Yeah, I’ve been there for two years. And, you know, we’re our plan is to go to about anywhere from 90 to 100. Next year. So..

Debra Chantry-Taylor  3:24

Fantastic! And the business itself is a couple of decades, it’s not a new business, is it?

Jeff MacGurn  3:29 

It’s not, it’s not. You know, I I met the our founder, a couple years, two and a half years ago, and we talked for a while and he built this business was a successful business. But he said, you know what, there’s, I want to do what, what you had some experience doing with a team, many years ago, and I want to take this business and build it and take it to the next level. You know, what, what, what can we do? And can you come on board? Can we do that together? And, that’s we’ve been doing over the last two years. And, you know, we’ve seen a lot of success. And I’m sure as you know, you know, I always say when it comes to making a business successful, it’s, it’s, you know, nobody’s born knowing how to do it. It’s something you have to learn. And it’s oftentimes best to learn from other people. And I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to be educated on a lot of the ins and outs of building a business by some people who have done it before. And, you know, here’s potentially my opportunity to do the second time.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  4:30 

Excellent. Okay. And so what’s your role in the business Jeff?

Jeff MacGurn  4:34

So I’m the Chief Operating Officer. And I pretty much for the most part run most aspects of the business.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  4:43

Yeah. And the business is running on EOS, isn’t it? So you, you hold the integrator title as well as that, right?

Jeff MacGurn  4:51 

That is correct. We, we switched over to EOS last year while switched over. We didn’t have another system we were, we were running under that we don’t have a system system. Yeah. And then we adopted EOS last year.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  5:03 

Okay. Can you just talk a little bit about that sort of journey? And because, had you come across EOS before? Or was this something new for you?

Jeff MacGurn  5:12 

You know, it’s funny. I had come across EOS before, but it’s not something that I think I had seriously considered, you know, building into the business. And I think that, you know, what, what we had built in the business, up to the point that we started considering it eventually ended up implementing EOS. We’ve built a lot of foundational elements that I think EOS will help business owners and leaders with, but then above and beyond that, you know, there was, there was something that I think we felt like we wanted that, you know, now that we’ve we had a lot of foundational elements. And that was some of the structure and rigor around business process, and pushing us forward moving forward. And, you know, we looked at some different options. And we just felt like EOS was one that would be good for, for us. And so far, I think it’s been, it’s been very successful in helping us push the business forward.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  6:10 

Perfect. So do you have a favorite EOS tool? That’s something that you’ve you know, that you’ve really found has taken, as you said, you got the basics in place, what was the one thing that has really helped with that business the last year?

Jeff MacGurn  6:23 

You know, I’m, I’m sure everybody says this, but I, I really, I really like the level 10 meetings. And the reason, the reason I really like level 10 meetings, is because in my experience, a lot of weekly meetings and catch ups degrade over a period of time into what’s going on with you? or what’s going on with you, right? And I think Eos, and especially level 10 meetings, help us keep focused in those meetings, and always have, you know, a pretty concrete agenda. It’s not, it’s not that we can’t catch up. And something we can’t discuss some of those things, but they keep us on task, and they keep us moving forward and focused on on those things that are most likely to help propel the business forward.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  7:11 

Yeah. I think it’s one of those tools. Actually, it makes a difference as soon as you start using it, but it just keeps getting better and better over time.

Jeff MacGurn  7:19 

Yeah, yeah. I agree with that. Yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  7:21 

Cool. Okay. So it’s been a tough two years. I mean, you joined this business two years ago, and that two years we’ve gone through what global pandemic, potential World War Three about to start, I don’t know. How has the business fared throughout that?What have been your challenges? And how have you overcome that?

Jeff MacGurn  7:39 

So I’m, obviously the, you know, global pandemic, and complete economic collapse was somewhat challenging. For a little while. But we, we basically, it was interesting, when the pandemic hit, and, we had the economic downturn, we kind of all looked at ourselves. And we said, okay, look, we’re, we need to take this opportunity to shore up the business, it’s not often that you get the opportunity to say, Okay, everyone pause, we’re going to work on, you know, building out our processes, and we’re going to work on improving our products and our marketing and an leveling up, you know, educating our employees, like, your clients typically aren’t like, Okay, we’ll just, we’ll just stop bothering you for for a year to do that. We had the opportunity that we said, you know, sort of it was thrust upon us unwittingly, but but we said, you know, we’re going to use this time to better ourselves, so that when we come out of this, we’re gonna be a stronger company, than we went into it. And we did so in with our financials, we did so by looking at all of our operating costs and trying to streamline everything there, we did so with all of our processes for our service lines, we did so with educating our employees, and we, we made sure that we were putting that time to good use. And we got through it without having to make any, any layoffs. We actually, we did some targeted pay cuts, to help shore up the business. There was some pullback in spending amongst our clients but we ended up getting through getting through at least the first year of the pandemic. Doing, you know, even though the top line revenue was down, we made just as much money as we had made the year before in terms of profit, right. So so we did we did really well there. And then, you know, coming out of it what we saw happen in our business was that, you know, b2b companies have always been about 5 to 10 years behind the times when it comes to you know, their marketing, right. They spend a lot of a big portion of their budget or they have, pre COVID they spend a big portion of budget on events and conferences and conventions, trade shows Field sale, sending things to people, flying out and take people to dinner, and may come a shock to you Debra, but wasn’t much of that happening after March of 2020. But the company’s still needed to get results. And so they turn their time, energy, efforts and resources to digital. And I think we were, we were sort of perfectly positioned to help companies navigate this new landscape and accelerate some of their digital transformations on the marketing front. And that’s, you know, that’s what we’ve been doing. The nice thing was we had shored up a lot of our processes at our service offerings to do just that, right. So we were ready to pounce. And over the last year, we’ve seen just an astounding amount of growth, you know, we’ve grown the company, almost 50%. And all the while almost unintentionally, being, you know, very profitable, invested a lot in the business, and in, in producing great things for our clients. So, you know, we’ve, we’ve been able to make it happen, and, and part of that has has sort of been EOS and some of the things it’s, it’s helped us do.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  11:13 

Okay. So yeah, interesting. I mean, obviously, things have changed, you can’t do the trade shows. And you said, So what do businesses do in that period? How do they change from what has effectively been ingrained in them for years and years and years around this fade of business? How do you help them to change that mindset? And what can you do for them?

Jeff MacGurn  11:34 

So we essentially, we essentially sort of began focusing on helping them transform their marketing to, you know, from going to trade shows to how do we how do we, how do we reach people at home? How do we reach people in channels, and on platforms that we normally wouldn’t have reached them? Right? And how do we engage in a meaningful dialogue without being there in person? Right, because you still need to engage in a meaningful dialogue and unlike your typical consumer transaction, right, where if you’re going to go buy toothpaste, you know, I mean, Debra how many people do you consult when you decide to try new toothpaste? Or? Nobody? You know, you’re gonna buy a sandwich from this place? I’ve never bought a sandwich. Oh, yeah, I’ll just do it. And you don’t like it, you know, doesn’t make a difference. Yeah. But, but when a business is going to invest $2 million in a enterprise IoT management platform, there’s not one buyer, and it’s not a decision that’s made lightly. You know, these sales cycles can be, you know, 6 12 18 months, 2 years, sometimes, and you don’t have one, one buyer, you have a buying committee of five people, 10 people, 15 people. And each one of those people has different wants, needs, desires, pain points. And so how do we now reach them in this new digital world? How do we help companies transform the way they market and the way that we’ve been helping a lot of companies, and this isn’t the only thing we do, we do something called Account Based Marketing. And it’s a strategic approach to marketing, where you do a lot of, spent a lot of time energy and effort researching your audience up front, your target list of accounts, and you actually narrow down and you say, instead of trying to target every single company that could buy my product, there may be 20,000 companies who buy my product, right? I’m going to narrow it down to who my ideal customers will be. And I’m only going to target the 50 or 100 or 400 companies that I think are the most likely to make a purchase of my product and actually pay for it. I’m going to make money.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  13:47 

Okay, so it’s almost like the, the EOS principle of having that list. Yeah, the list of your target market, to be really, really clear about who that is, rather than trying to be everything to everybody,is that what you’re saying?

Jeff MacGurn  13:48

That is 100% it and it’s taking those principles and applying them to your marketing program, right? And just getting really rigorous and granular about that, like EOS is.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  14:12

Now I know that you’re apart from obviously, that you, the clients you work with their life has changed your life has changed to throughout this pandemic, because you were when we were talking earlier, you said that you made a decision early on to actually not come back into an office. Yes, yeah. Tell us about that.

Jeff MacGurn  14:31 

So in about, was it? April of 2020. We were about a month into the pandemic. I went to our CEO and I said look, you know, and I said, Look, here’s the deal. We’re paying, we’re paying these leases. We negotiated the leases when the commercial real estate market was at the top, you know, we’re paying so we’re paying a good amount of money on a per square foot basis. People aren’t going in. And let’s be completely honest here. People don’t want to go back in the office, I don’t think they’re gonna want to go back into the office, we don’t know when COVID is going to be over. We don’t know if it’s going to be safe to go back in the office. And, and after one month of work, having everyone work from home, our productivity actually went up. Our people were more about 15% more productive, working from home. So I said, Look, we have opportunities to exit our leases, right now. Let’s avail ourselves to those opportunities. And the worst case scenario is we’ll say, you know, a year from now, two years from now, we’ll say, you know, we were wrong to exit our leases, we’ll go get a new lease, and I’m telling you, what we’re gonna find is that the real estate markets gonna be a lot more competitive, the commercial real estate markets gonna be a lot more competitive in terms of lease rates, it’s gonna be a renters market at that point. And, that’s we did. And since then, we’ve seen real estate cost commercial real estate costs drop precipitously. And actually, we’ve just signed a lease for an office now, but we’re doing something completely different that you would not expect actually

Debra Chantry-Taylor  16:22 

Can you share is that secret squirrel stuff?

Jeff MacGurn  16:26 

No, I can share I can share. So essentially, instead of going back and renting a regular office, we actually rented a closed down bar and restaurant.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  16:40 

Oh, now you got my attention.

Jeff MacGurn  16:43 

That is inside of Petco Park, which is the baseball stadium in San Diego. So it’s at Petco Park. It used to be, it used to be a breweries, Taproom / tasting room, bar restaurant. And our thought process was this right? What we, we didn’t have the same needs as we had before, as we started to talk to our employees and say, hey, look, you know, how often do you want to go in the office? How often do you need to go into the office? We were hearing once a week, twice a week? And why do you need to go to the office? Well, you need to go into, you know, work with a few other folks have this meeting, have that meeting, but not to sit at a desk and work. And nobody was saying they wanted to go in and work from eight to five, nobody wanted to. So we said to ourselves, do we need you know, 5000 square feet 10,000 square feet with a bunch of desks where we packed people in like sardines, expect them to be in the morning and leave in the evening, if nobody is gonna want to do that. And, we said no, you know, what we do need is some common spaces for people to congregate, socialize, to meet. And, and we want to place, a space that’s a little bit more suited to social interactions. And as we started to look at a lot of office spaces, we were like, well, these aren’t really suited to social interactions. And they weren’t places that were super attractive. The people were excited about going to and interacting with each other, and then we can then we found this space, you know, we told our broker, hey, you know, show some interesting stuff. And he showed us this close down bar, you know, at the baseball park, and he says, Can we take this? And we’re like, This is it? This is, this is so neat, right? And everybody was so incredibly excited. We’re, we’re redesigning the place right now. We’re picking out the beers we want on. And I think it’s gonna be it’s, yeah, everyone is super excited about spending time there. And we sort of flipped them on its head from, you know, what can I do to keep my employees at work? To what can I do to make my employees want to come to work?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  18:59 

Yeah, I love it. I can’t wait to see some photos and things. It’s fantastic.

Jeff MacGurn  19:04 

That’s gonna be great.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  19:05 

So when do you actually move in?

Jeff MacGurn  19:08 

We took control, we took control of property actually, sorry, we take control the property on the first I think we’ll end up moving in and everything will be moved in hopefully by the 14th of, of March.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  19:21 

Okay. All right. So some pretty big decisions that are being made throughout this time, what how do you make those decisions as a team in the business?

Jeff MacGurn  19:32 

So, we, we coalesce around the EOS process, right? We, we have some some ground rules that I think EOS has really provided us right? We’re always gonna be open and transparent and honest, we’re gonna bring every issue to the table. We’re going to prioritize and then we’re going to make sure everything aligns against our mission vision values, or B hag and that North Star for for the business, right? I always feel like if you know what you want to do and where You want to go, all of your decisions should come easy, right? Every decision should be pretty easy to make. And then we get together as a team, and we discuss the ins and outs. And we make a decision. And it’s not always a consensus, because you know that that doesn’t always work. But we do what’s right for the business. And sometimes your decisions are right, sometimes your decisions are wrong. And we just have the, you know, sort of the fortitude, the fortitude to make those adjustments when we know we’re wrong, and the humility to realize it and, and make the changes that need to be made. Yeah,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  20:34 

It’s interesting, isn’t it? Because a lot of people think that using the EOS processes, it’s design by committee. And it’s not that at all, it’s about consultation, if you like, and getting the best of all of those great minds in the room, but ultimately making the decision that is right for the business. And not everybody will agree. So there must be times people don’t necessarily agree with the decisions you’re making. Is that true?

Jeff MacGurn  20:57 

100%, there absolutely going to be times where people don’t agree with the decisions being made. But you know, that, that’s the nature of business. Unfortunately, it can’t be a democracy, because it doesn’t function the most effectively. Not everybody has every piece of information in a business and not everybody can have every piece of information within a business. And the buck has to stop, you know, somewhere, somebody is going to have to make a decision. Yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  21:22 

Hey, I’m really interested. This is our personal point of view. So I’m working with a couple of agencies over here in New Zealand. And they’re, they are both a mixture of digital and creative agencies. And there’s always been a sort of thing, but But putting a process is going to constrict us, it’s going to confine our creativity, and we can’t you know, we’re not the same as every other business. What would you say to that?

Jeff MacGurn  21:45 

I have heard that. Yeah. Before? Yeah. I think there are some incredibly successful creative agencies that have built their business off of a process. I think, I think, you know, I’m going to get real with you here, Debra, for a second, I think that’s a bit of a cop out, I think you can absolutely be creative, and you can absolutely have a process and look, don’t get me wrong, rules are made to be broken, right. So so just because we put a process in place, doesn’t mean it has to be completely rigid, right? It just means that we have a way to guide us in a way to, to repeat and scale quality. And that’s, that’s the whole point of a business, when you don’t put a process around your business and you don’t or service lines in your business, especially something like creative, it makes it very difficult for you to scale that business and grow. Because typically what I hear when I hear someone saying, and this may not be the case, with the creative digital agencies you’re working with, when I hear someone say, we can’t put a process into place, what I hear what I’m hearing, oftentimes, and what usually you see is it’s all based around one person, or it’s based on one or a few people. And they’re saying, like I can’t let go control of, of being the person that comes up with the idea or does the creative and building a business and scaling a business, especially an agency, especially with creative, you have to build that process to scale.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  23:18 

Now, I agree with you. And I remember at the beginning of the journey with these people, and they’re starting to see that actually, it is possible. And it makes a huge difference. And I think that cover who said it but somebody, you’ve got to systemize the predictable, so you can humanize the exceptional, which really means that your process gives you those boundaries. So as you said, that can be moved as well if you really need to, but it gives you the the structure and the framework, so you can actually then become even more creative, even more human in terms of the way that you do things. Yeah, yes.

Jeff MacGurn  23:48 

And by the way, your process can be around people. I’ll tell you a little, I’ll tell you a little secret about agencies, you probably already know this, having worked with so many companies over the years and work with agencies I’m sure you’ve worked with a lot of over the years. Brands don’t buy agencies, Brands buy teams, they buy people. I hear this time and time again. And I always tell agency owners, right, go to your top client, ]who’s your best client and who loves you, and tell them you’re taking everybody off their account, and you’re changing their team, and you’re at their reactions gonna be every time they make “No way”. They’ll leave me if they you know, they’ll leave me if I take your team off. I’m like, and that’s exactly it because they’re not buying your brand. They’re buying the team, you’re selling gray matter, but your process can be around, your process can be around gray matter and how you scale gray matter and how you put teams together and how they interact with each other and how you produce the creative and the services that you give them.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  24:58 

Can you give me an example?

Jeff MacGurn  25:01 

I’m sure sure, you can build processes around how we do things like creative briefs, right? How briefs have to be filled out how, who has to get the brief how the brief has to be entertained by the team, how we structure the team, right? How the team interacts with each other. We want every team to have one of this, one of this one of this, what have you experienced the team needs to have, the process can be around what we how we allow clients to interact with us, we forced clients to do is they interact with us, right? There are a lot of ways that you can put process and structure and rigor around creative businesses. And we do it all the time. And our team produces phenomenal, creative, amazing creative, it doesn’t have to hinder what anybody can produce.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  25:43 

I love it. Okay, it’s great. And I’m really intrigued to kind of find out within your own team, you talked about the North Star and having that strong vision that helps to guide your decisions that you make. How do you keep that stuff alive? Particularly when you’re not necessarily all sitting in an office together? What do you do to make sure that’s always top of mind?

Jeff MacGurn  26:00 

We shove it in our faces as much as possible. Literally, literally, we like every one of our quarterly all hands begins with the same exact thing like, here’s our B hag. Here’s our mission. Here’s our vision, here’s our values. And every time I say like, this hasn’t changed in two years. Guess what? It’s not changing anymore. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because that’s, that’s part of what building a business about is about keeping focus?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  26:28 

Yes. Yeah, it’s really interesting, because obviously, part of the EOS, we have our quarterly exchanges too. And every quarterly our visionary gets up, and he does the same thing. Here are our core values is that we work around here, this is what our B hag is this is what we’re sort of, you know, here’s where we’ve come from, here’s we’re going to, and we forget, you know, that people think I’ll keep repeating it over and over again, people will get tired of it. But actually, for me, it’s a real motivator. Every time I hear that I’m inspired, I go, Yep, that is absolutely 100% why I’m here. And I know that with my teams that I work with, when they do it as well, you have to keep reinforcing it. It helps to weed out the people who perhaps shouldn’t be there. And it inspires and motivates those who should be there.

Jeff MacGurn  27:07 

And how are you tracking to it? Right? Whatever your B hag is, are we on our way there? Are we making progress? Are we taking step back, you know, taking steps backwards? So it doesn’t just have to be like, Hey, everyone, this is just a reminder of what this is? No, no, this is what we want to be. How are we getting there? Do we really feel like we’re living the values? You know, we’ve hired all these new people, you know? And do we see them living the values? How are these values translating into us achieving our BHAG? Right? So it doesn’t just have to be a reminder. I mean, it is a reminder, but I think it can be a lot more than that, to your point.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  27:45 

Beautiful, okay, hey, look, we’re running out of time, these things always go so fast. I’d love to ask you to share three top tips, pointers, tools that you think could help people who are, you know, in an established business that may be hitting a ceiling and want to take that next step, particularly ever that’s going on in the world? What would you say are your top three tips or tools?

Jeff MacGurn  28:07 

Number one, you know, always focus on work life balance, I think it’s really important not to run yourself ragged, and not just your work life balance but the work life balance of your employees. If you put employees, you know, employees are your biggest resource, right? Always, always put them first. And always try and hire the best and brightest, and be willing to pay a little bit more, right and invest more in your people. We did that. And it made a hug, made a huge difference for the business. It continues to pay off in spades. Right? Yeah. Number two, understand that there is no silver bullet in building a business. Right? You know, I, I remember I had a CEO once asked me like, What are the three things you do to you know, close a big client. And like, if there were three things I would not be here, I’d be in my own private island. Like, it’s not three things. There’s not three things that you do to build a business to, you know, $100 million in revenue. I always tell people, it’s not one thing you do to double size your business. It’s 200 things you do. And each one of them increases the size of your business by half a percent. But together, together, they coalesce to make it seem like it was one big thing. It’s lots of little things. Yeah, businesses die death by 1000 cuts, or they get built by a million bricks. Right. Yeah. I think the other thing is, and I see this as a problem in a lot of small businesses, in growing businesses, focus, stay focused, right. And that’s one of the things I loved about EOS and what it helped us do, it puts some rigor and process around helping us keep focus on the thing that matters, and not making lots of left turns, right. It’s really easy to be that business. It’s constantly changing change. The can the you know, shiny object and maybe we try this, maybe we try this. And I’m not saying don’t try new things. But you have to have a sustained focus and effort on making work what you have and not changing things too often and too drastically too often, if that makes sense.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  30:18 

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Thank you. Okay. And in terms of the type of clients that you like to work with, I’m obviously, you’ve defined your, your ideal target market for the agency, what do they look like? What are the businesses you love to work with?

Jeff MacGurn  30:33 

Typically, we love to work with b2b companies that are invested in the power of digital, they believe in it, they’re investing in it, it’s a big part of their growth and acquisition, you know, new business acquisition strategy. And, and the ones that that want to try new things and do interesting stuff when it comes to digital, or the ones that know they need to make a transformation into the digital world, right? That the way they’ve been doing things in the past just isn’t working. Having one sales guy cold call everybody up isn’t going to take them to the next level. They need to define their brand and they need to digitize their marketing efforts.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  31:12 

So if somebody wants to get hold of you, how would they do that?

Jeff MacGurn  31:15 

Reach out to Jeff MacGurn J E F F dot M A C G U R N, at business o l.com.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  31:24 

Beautiful. Hey, Jeff has been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. Thank you so much for giving me the time. I know we’re in different time zones. But I really appreciate you spending the afternoon with me. I look forward to seeing some photos of that new space that just sounds like my kind of. Yeah. And I look forward to seeing the growth that you know, continued growth that you get over the next few months as well. So thank you so much, you. Yeah.

Jeff MacGurn  31:48 

Thanks for Thanks for having me. And if you’re in San Diego, we’d love to have you to our our little office.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  31:55 

I will be coming to Buffalo but yeah, it’s gonna work on this little thing called a Prime Minister who won’t leave our country yet but

Jeff MacGurn  32:03 

As soon as you’re able to leave. we should do it together.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  32:06 

Absolutely. Yeah, I would really enjoy that. Okay, well, look, you have a great rest of the afternoon. Thank you so much.

Jeff MacGurn  32:12 

Thanks so much. Have a good one.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  32:15 

Thanks again for joining us on better business better life with me your host Debra Chantry-Taylor. If you enjoy what you heard, then please subscribe to this podcast. And let us help you to get what you want out of business in life. Each week we release a new short episode which will give a success story and three takeouts to put into action immediately. These will help you take your business from good to great. The podcast is also supported by free resources, templates and useful tools, which you can find at Debra Chantry-Taylor dot com. I am a trained entrepreneur leadership and business coach, a professional EOS implementer and an established business owner myself. I work with established businesses to help them get what they want. Feel free to contact me if you’d like to have a chat about how I might be to help you. Or if you’d like to join me as a guest on this podcast. Thanks again to NZ audio editors for producing this podcast. See you on the next episode.