Andrew Chambers  00:00

Do you do literally take your clothes off for the bank, and it’s not always that pleasant? No, quite unique in New Zealand in that sense, we go into some real depth when it comes to getting a home loan. Yeah, and people are embarrassed about it. If it’s, you know, it might just be the fact that their alcohol bill is high, or they drink a lot of coffees or two trips overseas each year. Sometimes they know that that’s not the norm and that they do feel a little bit conscious of it.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:23

So, Good morning and welcome to another episode of Better Business, Better Life. Today, I’m joined in studio by Andrew Chambers, who’s a CEO of Tella, which he’ll be telling a little about in a moment. Welcome to the studio.

Andrew Chambers  00:33

Thank you.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:34

Thank you.

Andrew Chambers  00:34

Thanks for having me.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:35

Oh, absolute pleasure. So we’ve just been having a bit of a chat about you know, your background, and you are a 20 year career banker who then went out on their own to start their own business. Would you like to tell us a little about that, that journey and why you did that?

Andrew Chambers  00:48

Yeah. Okay. Well, to start off, I think I’ll explain that I am an accidental banker to get into banking. Okay. When I left school, actually, I’m in a sound room now. And I was I did audio engineering. So that’s interesting. And I went off on my own to the UK. And as you do you sort of go for where the pay is when you end up in the UK, and I got into financial services for you with insurance, and came back to New Zealand and went to a agency to look for a job. And they said, When can you start? And I said today and they said I’ve got a job at ANZ for you.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  01:26

And that was the first banking job.

Andrew Chambers  01:28

Yes, that’s my first banking job.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  01:30

And you stay with them for a long time.

Andrew Chambers  01:31

Yeah. So that’s 1995. And I ended up being there to 2014. So yeah, I had a full career there and banking and pretty much all facets of it in a way I started and migrant services, which was looking after my current banking, liaising with all the offshore branches that ANZ had had cash flows coming from offshore around those migrants and bits and pieces. And then I went into corporate banking and worked my way up to various roles, go to that sort of relationship level. Went offshore and did the same thing with ANZ and the Pacific. And yeah, just kept moving basically, through the organization to sort of more senior role managing people in corporate and New Zealand. So yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  02:23

Okay. So then after that, you did switch for a little while, didn’t you? You went to a slightly different banking role.

Andrew Chambers  02:30

Yeah, So my exit from ANZ it was to join the establishment team and China construction bank, when the three of the Chinese banks entered the market in 2014. So yeah, that was hit a commercial for New Zealand for China construction bank. And I stayed there for 12 months period, which was basically the establishment period, but decided during that time that I should try and do something for myself.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:00

Sure. So So from there, what happened? Yeah, what you what was your thing for yourself?

Andrew Chambers  03:05

Yeah. So I guess when you’ve got 20 years in banking, you you often think about what you could do better, or how you could help your clients better. You also have a lot of relationships, I was very lucky that I built a good number of client relationships over that period. And I knew a lot of bankers, particularly in ANZ that were at that same point, looking for a new challenge and something that we’ve given them a bit of life actually, because you you kind of probably get a bit stale after, you know, a couple of decades of in, in banking. Yep. So with EX colleagues started Eightfold, and bought and a couple of other ex colleagues to kind of establish a bit of a team there Eightfold. It’s a debt advisory business, but it focuses on the individual. So the relationship point, and if that’s a business owner, it’s about looking after everything that they need from a debt point of view. If it’s a professional, it’s it’s potentially about understanding the firm that they were in and the dynamics of that, but also the personal property portfolio they might the individual professional might have or their family needs or the whole lot. So it’s sort of about we don’t deal obviously with publicly listed companies, but we deal with everyone from a owner occupier needing a home loan through to corporate business looking to move banks, so quite a wide array of different needs. And they’re really

Debra Chantry-Taylor  04:45

and so there was four of you when you first started, but you’ve now got 60 and 70. That’s somewhere around 16 to 18 people. Yeah,

Andrew Chambers  04:51

Yeah. So we have seven advisors in total plus an insurance advisor. So on the debt side, we have seven I’m one insurance advisor that helps around the life insurances, which is a nice tie into the group that we have and those customer needs. And then we have a bunch of good people assisting to make all that come together in the background. So support people admin. Yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:19

Okay. And so that was if I’m right, that was back in 2005. was,

Andrew Chambers  05:25

That was 2015. Yeah, cool. Yeah. So that’s, yeah. Seven years ago. Yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:31

And so on that journey, and we’ll come back to tell you in a moment, that’s the newest baby. But on that journey so far, what are the things that you’ve been most proud of? both professionally and personally?

Andrew Chambers  05:42

Yeah, so I’m proud of the team. I mean, it’s an awesome team, really good experience, they put a lot into their customer relationships, and making sure those outcomes are good for the customer base. That comes with the feedback that they get. And I’m very proud of that sort of feedback that we get from the banks themselves and others that we deal with our suppliers, as well as the customers. But it’s nice when you. Yeah, I mean, we haven’t, we’ve had so much wonderful sort of positive feedback over the years. And that’s the stuff that really drives me it’s having delivered for a customer that makes the day great. So yeah, I think that’s probably the biggest driver for all of us, actually, as a business is just getting those outcomes for, for our clients. And I think it’s been, the environments got harder and harder to get those outcomes in. So it’s also sort of being able to be technically good at what you do to be able to keep up with all the changes that’s been going on. Over the last 10 years, we’ve had a lot of regulation come in, we’ve had a lot of conservatism come in cost, the bank’s compliance come in, it’s been a huge knowledge drain, I think across the bank. So we’ve had to pick up and change to kind of account for that. So yeah, a lot of challenges. And we’ve kept up and keep going. Yeah, that’s fantastic.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  07:17

Yeah. And so I’ve got to ask, because I used to be working in insurance. And if I told you that, but I used to work in insurance. And so you know, going from the security, and let’s face it, the good pay that comes in working in insurance and banking, to going out on your own. And that was a massive kind of leap of faith. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that journey.

Andrew Chambers  07:36

Yeah, I guess. That’s the biggest challenge. Isn’t that going from the stable salary? To the unknown? And yeah, that was probably the biggest leap of faith I’ve done in my career. But I think I probably had reached a period or a stage in my life where I was financially secure, and knew that I could, you know, worst case in that scenario was downsize or do adolescence of things. I wasn’t overburdened, if you like. So that gave me that comfort. But I also knew that I had some great people and that we all had some great relationships around that. So yeah, I think that sort of gives you some security.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  08:23

Okay, yeah. I mean, that we talk about, you know, the hockey stick growth of a business. And we know that never quite happens quite like that, where there’s a little hiccups or challenges you faced along the way in terms of getting started, because it’s very different working in a corporate way. Yeah. Everything done for your people surrounding all the various bits and pieces. Yeah, suddenly running your own business. Yeah,

Andrew Chambers  08:41

I think what you don’t know, when you’re in a corporate, you’re kind of naive about quite a bit. Really. Yeah. And so for me, just the administrative functions, bookkeeping, dealing with accountants, all the things that you thought were really simple in the US to your clients, when you’re a corporate relationship manager, actually, you realize that they take time. And time is your enemy as a small business, just you know, you’re always chasing your tail on time. So I think that’s probably Yeah, it’s, I guess, that, uh, that relativity between income and time, is you don’t see it when you’re working in a corporate but you do when you own your own business? Yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  09:29

Yeah. So yeah. So was there any times where you actually kind of wondered, you know, what on earth have I done or has it all been reasonably smooth sailing?

Andrew Chambers  09:38

No, often sort of, you know, you have your bad days and you sort of think, you know, I wouldn’t mind sort of not having to deal with certain things. But I’d never consider going backwards. I wouldn’t go back to a corporate and often the challenges you You may have to deal with something in a small business that you didn’t have to deal with in a corporate because you become a generalist. And you don’t enjoy all elements of that you just, you know, it’s hard to, you know, dealing with GST or something like that is not necessarily gonna be pleasurable, but it has to be done, because it’s one of the things on the list. But then you kind of get past it and think about the bigger picture and what the business has done and the enjoyment you’ve had from it, and you get past it. You move on,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  10:34

we ever had any people challenges because you know, sometimes we kind of go out on your own and you we often start off employing people that we know or family business grows, and suddenly that grant grows them. Tell me a little bit about some of those challenges.

Andrew Chambers  10:47

I think that people challenges always the biggest one. And, for me, I kind of always expect that everyone’s going to be like me, and they’re not. And that’s that’s the starting point. Yeah, that’s totally natural. And then there’s the sort of, I think, what, you know, you get good at identifying certain qualities and issues in terms of, I’ve gotten better at recruiting, I think over the years, I know what works and doesn’t work so much, both from a role perspective in terms of what we need, and the people, but also through to sort of the firt, and making sure that that person coming in as a good fit in terms of the team and all those sorts of things. So I think I probably have better processes now to in terms of that acquisition of people piece. But, you know, it’s, again, you know, I did a lot of recruitment and banking over the years, yes, but the risk isn’t as great if you hit it wrong, right. So, it’s like, and the time cost is, is not such a concern, or as if, you know, we’ve just done a roll for teller 130 applicants down to seven down to three down to one sort of thing. And it takes a lot of time, you know, and so you got to get it right, you can kind of mock-up on it and be changing someone out in six months’ time. And, you know, just want to be yeah, Want to be, there’s a number of reasons why not? So you need to have to get better at doing that sort of stuff. And you’d wouldn’t corporate scenario.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  12:29

Yeah. So tell me a bit about tell us a Tella is that there’s the latest launch, if you like, and that was an idea that came to you. Well, years ago is really solidified it during the lockdown. Is that right?

Andrew Chambers  12:40

Yeah. So I think actually, it comes goes back to my banking career where in banking over the years, we I got sort of hold on to doing project work, new CRM, new term deposit tool, you know, all these sorts of things that come up. But they’re also clumsy in terms of the way they were instigated, and these projects were so expensive to run, and it took years to do and you often got a mediocre sort of outcome. And so I’ve always been since leaving banking, I’ve always sort of been tempted to look at doing something that takes space. And I had a couple of guys that sort of starting something around digitization of the mortgage early on with Eightfold, but didn’t quite have all the tools they needed, I think. And then in the lock down of the first stock down, was it March 2020? Yeah. It’s sort of dawned on me that if I’d had that tool, or that set of tools in terms of being able to digitize that loan process and allow people to apply online and upload docs online and do all the kind of preventing themselves would have been a wonderful scenario to have through a pandemic. Yep. So at that stage, I had a bit of lockdown time on my hands, I guess it was a few things weren’t happening. And I sort of got a big pad out and started thinking about how it might work. And fortunately, I had met Stefan, my business partner who is a tech entrepreneur a few years earlier. And he was also kind of keen to look at the digitization of financial services as a whole, really in New Zealand. And he’d done a number of investments in that space and other businesses. So together, we sort of got started and started rebuilding a tech team. So we’re a bit unique in that sense, and that we decided that we needed to own our technology. So we started with one as you do, and we’ve now got six and we’ve built from the ground up

Debra Chantry-Taylor  15:00

They’re all New Zealand based two aren’t? Yeah,

Andrew Chambers  15:03

Yeah. Yeah, very unique and in the same space as the rest of the business, so they’ve had to learn about our industry. They’re getting really good at home loans. And if you don’t get that quiet, you know, tech team operating in another country or another office. So yeah, it sounds quite unique from that sense. So yeah, we’ve built out a vise platform for home loans, that allows people to do what they did with a mortgage broker essentially, in the past, they can do it in their own time and on their own terms to some degree. So the application process can all be done at done online, the supporting information gets uploaded online, they can start with we’ve got an amazing library of information to learn from, which I’m really proud of, I think it’s probably one of the best in the country in terms of a single place to go to to find information about getting home loans. And it deals with the first home buyer, the owner occupier, the investor, the parents that are trying to get the kids into home, there’s got the whole suite of information there that suits different scenarios that people have really.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  16:22

Yeah, that’s designed to prepare them so that when they go into the process, the application know what to expect, and how to best position themselves. And best deal.

Andrew Chambers  16:31

Yep. And then there’s tools. So there’s calculators that they can go in and actually look at affordability, look at what repayments would look like, look at the cost of refinancing those all those sorts of different bits and pieces that they might want to look at. rates, which is kind of essential, but so they can see where the markets at and what banks are doing and all those sorts of things. And you know, backed up with video and other bits and pieces to to try and make it easy for those that don’t want to read but would rather watch. So yeah, yeah. And yeah, so the unique thing, I think with Tella is that it’s not restricted by geography. You know, I could be sitting in one occur and decide at 11 o’clock at night, I’m going to start applying for a home loan, I don’t need to try and find out who the local mortgage broker is, or you know, what, who’s safe to deal with who talked to I don’t have to book an appointment, I don’t have to go in to see them or go to a branch or whatever it might be. I just get on and do it online. And that’s kind of you know, what, one one of the things that I said when we launched as it’s not that our customer base thinks we knew they thought we already existed, right? I feel you know, it’s like, surely that’s surely online. So it’s sort of like, I think we’re kind of, although we’re the first sort of rollout such a, into a product in New Zealand. I think the market probably, you know, particularly in that sort of under 30. Under 40. area, they probably thought it already existed. So the first time they go to get a home loan, they probably going to go online and search for this tool anyway. And hopefully they find Taylor.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  18:27

Yeah, that’s great. And so you talked about this, this new person, you’re looking at 130 applications. Is that what I heard you say? 130 applications for a job? Yeah. Yeah. Was that all the tech people

Andrew Chambers  18:37

Designer? Yeah. So that’s, we’ve contracted out our design piece actually, over the last couple of years. And we’re bringing that in house now. So yeah, that’s amazing, actually. quite staggering. I wish we could get that was developers.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  18:56

I just like is my understand, I was thinking for the developers, it was it was quite, quite short supply.

Andrew Chambers  19:01

That’s been incredibly hard to get developers. And actually, to be fair, I mean, I, we got 130 applications for designers, I would say a third of those required sponsorship. Okay. So, you know, you take them out. And then you know, probably a third don’t have the skill set required. So you you quickly get down and so, yeah, I mean, labor and access to it are still, you know, a major problem for us. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think for a lot of businesses now the insurance is offshoring and other bits and pieces. And so yeah, it’s, it’s kind of, I’d like to keep as much of it here as we can, particularly around the the areas that are quite sort of sensitive in terms of IPM but some pieces, but at some point you sort of go we probably are going to have to look at outsourcing.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  19:57

Model potentially of some offshore and some local Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, so you said that you’ve managed to refine your recruitment process if you like, what are the things that you’ve done to make it a bit easier for you or to to make sure you get the right person?

Andrew Chambers  20:12

Yeah. So the screening piece is probably a bit deeper than it used to be. Yep. And obviously, there’s that screening at a kind of intro letter resume. Level. Yep. But what we’re doing a lot more of now, sort of standard testing. And if I use a developer’s as an example, we’ve, what have we done 1,2,3,4 front end developers in the last year or so when we go through that process, we’ve put them all through the same practical testing. So you actually start to get a really nice feel, because you got benchmarking against the peers that have come in already against the ones we didn’t hire. So we’re using a lot more comparative tools in that sense. And not changing that model and keeping it consistent. You know, developers are unique, because they kind ofcode-drivenn and all that sort of stuff. But you can start to get a really nice handle on where someone’s at what they’re going to need in terms of future development, and but some pieces. Yeah, but you also get to see the personalities,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  21:26

Technical aspects. Great. Yeah. What about your personality? How do you make sure they fit in with, so how to actually, because they’re working, as you said, within the same office as the loan people, so they’re not just a whole team of developers.

Andrew Chambers  21:36

So that testing that gives you an idea of how they cope with projects and being under pressure, and timeframes and all those sorts of things, communication skills. And that’s really good. But the other thing we do with everyone now, is we, the last interview they have is with the team, right? So we pick a couple of members of our team. And we get them in the room to actually see that. You know, what’s the feedback? Did they like them? Did they not like them? Did they think they fit in? Do they, you know, just the basic human stuff? did? Did they show any weaknesses or flaws? Or,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  22:21

You know, are they actual issues? Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Chambers  22:23

So so there’s a bit more of that than we have done in the past?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  22:27

What do you think has been the biggest challenge in growing both of those businesses? Would you say?

Andrew Chambers  22:35

Yeah, it’s probably people, which is no surprise. And I think, particularly the last few years hasn’t been great in terms of stability. I think that there’s a sort of double edged sword with flexibility that we’ve got at the moment, we’ve been through an environment where flexibility was needed to manage a pandemic. But when you give too much flexibility, it becomes an insecurity almost. And I think there’s that balance to be had, particularly with, with people that need routine, that’s not everyone. It’s a good chunk of humanity, around this kind of idea of flexible workplaces over that traditional model of rigidity. And so it’s finding that nice, happy medium, that kind of works for people. That’s been challenging over the last few years. Work From Home versus been in the office, collaboration, how that gets affected, creativity, how that gets affected, all those sorts of things. So I think that’s probably been the people but always the biggest challenge, but it’s also the leadership team, being able to create that vision and the direction and all those things that those people need to Yep. And I guess coming back to small business versus corporate. I think in the past and corporates, middle management state played a huge part in those organizations around leadership and development of people and direction. But it’s always the first thing to get eroded. When times are hard. It’s easy layer to take out. And a small business, it’s really hard to put it down because you just don’t have the the budget to do it. Right. But you know, I think having that traditional sort of triangular shape organization versus a flat structure has a lot of merit. And I think that’s been lost a little bit in recent times. So from a people point of view, I think it’s something that I’m constantly conscious of And beyond that, big challenges keeping up with regulation, yes. And we’ve had a huge amount of regulatory change over the last 10 years. We now have training requirements for our people, we’ve got to keep up with compliance, like we never have before, and make sure that we’re on top of record keeping and all these sorts of things. And a lot of those are kind of an opportunity for us with what we’re doing with our technology. So making sure that that’s much more automated, and accessible, and all those sorts of things.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  25:39

And automated to make it more personal, right, because people are scared of automation, they say, We’re all gonna become robots. But if you believe that you can automate the basic stuff, it gives people the opportunity to actually personalize and humanize the valuable stuff.

Andrew Chambers  25:52

But I think it’s also giving back, giving back to the customer the choice. Whereas I think that had got a bit lost in financial services. And that’s where the issues have come with advice being provided, and banks around insurances and things like that as if you if it’s the blind leading the blind, then often it becomes a kind of binary thing, rather than a situation where the customer has a choice. I think that’s with digital, you can do that really well. Because you can actually provide that sort of questioning line online. And you might do it in two different ways to get the same answer to make sure that you actually are doing what they want. But you can, you can do clever stuff like that to actually reinforce the decisions that a system is making, if you like. But I think the other opportunity there is that advisors in general have less time to spend on clients, because they’re spending more time on the compliance, the compliance side. So you know, better systems means that they potentially get back some of that client time, and actually have time to provide good advice. So giving them the tools to do that, really. I think it’s hard because more regulation doesn’t necessarily mean better outcomes from an advice point of view. And in fact, I’d say today versus five years ago, the people that need advice are probably getting it less, and the ones that don’t need it. The ones that get it which is a hard one. Again, if I look at system like Tella, I think teller is good for thenonbankk than the individual that’s not getting the advice. The individual that knows they’ve got a problem and is looking for help around solving it, but potentially is embarrassed or so about that. Online offers quite a lot for those people.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  27:59

Yeah. Because you haven’t got to be sitting in front of somebody kind of Yeah. Hidden, hidden hands shameful about what’s been going on. Yeah, have the conversations. Yeah, but more. What’s the right word? A little bit more removed. But

Andrew Chambers  28:14

Yeah, I’m

Debra Chantry-Taylor  28:14

Able to have it here.

Andrew Chambers  28:15

Yeah. When you? You know, Stefan, my business partner says you do literally take your clothes off of the bank. And it’s not always that pleasant. No. And, yeah, we’re quite unique in New Zealand. In that sense, we go into some real depth when it comes to getting a home loan. Yeah, yeah. So and people are embarrassed about if it’s, you know, it might just be the fact that they their alcohol bill is high, or they drink a lot of coffees or they had two trips overseas each year. Sometimes they know that that’s not the norm and that they do feel a little bit conscious of it, you know, so, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s, I think digital does sort of have some real pluses around helping people that would otherwise not necessarily want to open up to an individual.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  29:11

I think that’s important. We’re talking about tele before. I mean, it’s not all fully automated, right? That automating the stuff that just needs to be done so that you can then spend the time working on things that need to be dealt with. Yeah. So you’re still got a human at the end of the line, who is going to help you through that process is going to talk you through, give you the advice that you need?

Andrew Chambers  29:28

Yeah, so we’ve got a team of home loan specialists, and they’re all qualified advisors. And they sit there to pick up the phone, but they’ve also got live chat there. So they’re often answering questions and live chat. They’re still vetting everything that goes through so it doesn’t go to a lender until it’s gone through a vet and just to make sure that everything adds up and make sense and there’s nothing in there. That’s gonna cause an issue down the line. So yeah, I mean, it’s still very much a human business. The bit that’s different is that you can do a lot before you engage with that person. And then hopefully, you’re not going backwards and forwards as much. It’s a cleaner process. You, the system basically tells you what’s required in terms of uploading of information. It knows that if you’ve got to trust, you’re going to need a certain document, or if you’ve got a loan from a parent, you’re going to need something. And so it’s automated all those kinds of decisioning things. So when the adviser picks it up, hopefully that conversations a lot more to the point. And it’s, it’s where it needs to be as opposed to about things that are just annoying.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  30:51

To tell me, is there any AI built into it? Not really. But there’s probably something in the future that can meet the Yes. What does the future look like?

Andrew Chambers  31:00

Yeah, so the future is that it becomes a marketplace for financial services really. And so you get more integration of things. So if you’re, if you’re getting your first home, the insurance elements would get built into that journey, for instance, so you’re kind of able to do everything in one spot. And your information is not been duplicated in multiple places, it’s been collected once and provide to do different suppliers or whatever it might be to do it. So that’s kind of the future is to really make those journeys a lot more succinct and cleaner. And the less duplication of information and less duplication of phone calls and relationship points and all those sorts of things. The AI is gonna be there somewhere. And you know, we do things like take bank statements and itemize all your spending. Yes. And so that myself, yeah, so things like that, where AI come in handy, because you can start to speed that process up. By using automation. We do a lot of so, you know, just the basic home loan, we look at the servicing Ability of the Individual. So how much money they got left over after they see what’s the loan to live on, and all those bits and pieces. And we’ve already built in the formulas that the banks are using into our system. So that’s all automated, you’re not double keying, and doing all that sort of stuff. So little things like that will just continually improve over time. Yeah, there’s so much opportunity and you can imagine digital space.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  32:45

Okay, so, um, I love to share tips and tools with our listeners, because I think it’s really important not only to feel that, yes, they’re not alone on this journey that we’re doing it. Yeah. What are the three kind of top top tips or tools that you’d like to share?

Andrew Chambers  32:58

Yeah, yep. What did I have? I actually wrote this down, because I wanted to, to give it some thought. But I think I think the number one thing with owning your own business is to not get caught up in the day-to-day and to keep focused on the longer-term vision. And because there’s always something needed that day from someone for something. There’s always a short-term period that you’re focusing on in terms of achieving something. But the business is built from thinking, you know, long term, so you know, sort of got to get your mindset out of that short-term day-to-day mindset. And reposition it all the time and to what’s the longer-term outcome goal thing that I’m trying to achieve here? Yeah, don’t

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:56

Lose sight of it.

Andrew Chambers  33:57

Yeah.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:57

So that’s how do you find time to make sure that you have that clarity of thought, because it is really important to keep your focus on that sort of 10-year picture rather than the day-to-day stuff?

Andrew Chambers  34:06

Yeah, yep. So, I think there’s a number of ways. But we will then Tella for instance, we focus on that at a manage management level, shareholder level. So we’re constantly thinking, and this is a great thing with an early-stage business, you’re constantly looking at capital. So you’re much more focused on valuation and where you need to get to in terms of making sure that valuations are hit of what you need in capital. So that creates that mindset. So and I always sort of think that the number one way of actually keeping that long-term hat on has to be constantly thinking about exit, Where’s the exit going to come from? Because even if it’s not the exit that you get in the end, It’s, it’s forcing you to think about, you know, the five-year plan as opposed to the 12-month plan.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  35:06

And I think exit is an interesting term. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that you aren’t going to the business, it’s like you should be able to not be involved. That’s what exit really means. So is there a way this business could run without you being involved in it day to day,

Andrew Chambers  35:18

But it’s a bit like the idea of selling your house in 12 months’ time? Well, if you do that, then you’re gonna maintain it, you know, you’re not gonna let it run down. And it’s, and that’s kind of that, that gets you into that longer-term thinking.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  35:32

Love it. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Let’s see.

Andrew Chambers  35:35

What else did I have? Oh, gosh, I just can’t see where I’ve put them. That’s okay. Yeah. So My next step was empower your people? Yep. So as a small business, it’s really hard to do everything yourself, that’s never going to work. But yes, it means you really, you have to let go. Yeah. And that’s really hard for any entrepreneurial person, I think. And I’m still learning to do it. And I’m not very good at it. But, and it’s gonna result in some outcomes. Not always good. But I think it’s gonna actually result in more upside than downside. And so it’s, it’s about getting your head around that. And so, you know, again, coming back to employing people, you want people that are going to come in. But, and you know, that when you give them that empowerment, they’re going to run with it, and you can do things for that. They’re not going to sit back and wait for you to ask them to do something. And yeah, so that’s, that’s probably my my next. For me personally, that’s been my biggest challenge is to sort of step aside and let others run with things. And to remind them constantly, that if they’ve got ideas or want to bring something to the table, the door’s always open, you know, it’s sort of like, Come and see me, talk to us. Talk to the team, raise it in a meeting. Or just do it and see how it goes. And tell us later? You know, if it’s a small thing to accountability, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that was that one? And then the third one is, is a hard one, because it’s it’s probably coming back to that kind of ethos that you’ve talked about in terms of work life balance, yes. It’s challenging. But I always think of what Elon Musk said, when he asked how he was better than his competition. I can’t remember which one it was. And he said, It’s because we work twice the hours. And it’s sort of like that, if you really kind of break away from competition, sometimes that just means that you have you have to be more dedicated, and, and put in that extra effort. Yep. Doesn’t mean that you don’t be efficient and make sure that you’re putting the hours in the right place. But you know, sometimes those those short pushes make a huge difference.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  38:19

Yeah. Okay. I haven’t got one last question for you as well. It just came to my mind. I mean, so in terms, let’s just say there’s somebody in listening in who’s in the cushy corporate job at the moment and thinking about going out into business, what would be the number one tip you would give to them?

Andrew Chambers  38:34

Probably not wait as long as I did. Yeah. Yeah, I’m 50. Yes. And I kind of wish I’d done something in my 30s. Because you’ve got that extra energy when you’re young. And that, I know, it’s hard because you’ve got family and bits and pieces at that stage that you want stability around. But my number one tip would be first sort of talk to people that are entrepreneurial, and out there doing their own things to understand that what the differences Yeah, to get your head around what it means to step away from a salary and actually take that risk. And as not all upside, it’s you’ve got to listen challenges, clear of what those challenges are. And you’ve got to have a plan for how you’re going to deal with them when they come along. And that’ll be the primary one will be cashflow. Yeah. You’re not going to have that consistency of cash flow. So what happens when you have a month where you’ve got no income?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  39:37

We always say you should always have about six months in the bank justice for those times because in the 10 year cycle, you always get a couple of good years. Couple of terrible years, years that will actually make you go Yeah, but if you haven’t got

Andrew Chambers  39:47

That Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. Yeah, yeah. You’ve got that cycle that you don’t have when you’re on salary.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  39:52

Yes, Like it’s awesome. Just make sure I think one of my key things is ISIL on market validation work at the Ice House. You You’ve got to know there’s a real need for what you’re doing. Because an idea. Yeah, and talk to friends and family always say Yes. Fantastic idea. Yeah. But there’s got to be a real need for it. And you already knew that because of the work you were doing in the bank. Yeah.

Andrew Chambers  40:12

So one of the things that I’ve sort of learned a lot, just since leaving banking is the importance of sort of benchmarking ideas. And so I don’t actually think it’s a great idea to do something that hasn’t been tried or tested somewhere else, which is a bit unusual, because that’s not very entrepreneurial. But it doesn’t mean you can’t do it in a different slightly different way. Or, you know, so being second as always a great position to be in. Or to, in our case, for teller. You know, the thirst platform, like what we’ve done with teller in Australia was 2013. And the US that was 2015. So we had a lot of resources in terms of benchmarking and understanding what they’re done, how they’re changed. What was working what. So, you know, if you’ve got an idea

Debra Chantry-Taylor  41:02

Of that trade me Euro, yeah, all those things done particularly well, they weren’t the first mark. They just did it better.

Andrew Chambers  41:09

That’s right. Yeah. And that’s, that’s the key. I think, that I think Fresh, fresh eyes on everything gives you that ability to go and actually, you know, it’s like with the tech and Teller, we’re starting from scratch. So we’ve got that benefit of selling slate, clean slate building from the foundations of modern technology and technology that in 2013 didn’t exist. And that’s the opportunity for being entrepreneurial and starting something today, as opposed to your competition who might have done it earlier. Yeah, but I do think that we need more entrepreneurs. So take the risk and get out of bed early.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  41:53

And it’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you for sharing all your stuff with me if people want to get in contact with you. And if they want to find out about tolerance. Well, where would they go to? How do they?

Andrew Chambers  42:01

Do they find me? Probably the easiest way is andrewtella.com.nz  instead or LinkedIn? Yeah, but always happy to talk to people.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  42:12

And tella.com.nz instead just to be really good. That’s T E L L A co.nz and that’s your online sort of how would you describe it in one sentence?

Andrew Chambers  42:19

That’s a well online mortgage broker platform.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  42:23

Okay, great. Well, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Andrew Chambers  42:25

Thank you.