Passing the Family Business Torch with EOS | Sara B. Stern | Ep 223

Sara B. Stern  00:00

As a family business owner, your legacy is, why do you own the business? Unfortunately, people do a lot is they get together to have an owner's meeting to talk about land and property in the business and a whole bunch of stuff. They call it a family meeting. And that drives me bananas.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:20

Thanks for joining us on the Better Business better life podcast. I'm your host, Debra Chantry-Taylor, and I'm passionate about helping entrepreneurs to lead their ideal lives by creating better businesses. Because as I always say, life is too bloody short. I'm a certified EOS implementer and FBA accredited family business advisor and a business owner myself with several business interests. I work with established business owners and their leadership teams to help them live their ideal entrepreneurial life using EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. I use this podcast to share practical tips and tools about how to use EOS in your business and your life to get more of what you want. Today's show is the second in a two-part family business special with my special guest, Sara B Stern.

Today's guest has got a name that is a whole sentence. She's an expert EOS implementer, and she's the former director of an international Family Business Centre, Sara and I share the same passion for helping Second Generation and beyond family businesses to succeed. In part one, we shared how to balance family dynamics and business using the EOS tools and the three circle family business model from Harvard. And in this part two, we're going to talk about how to overcome succession planning challenges using the Harvard three-circle family business model and EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. Sara B. Stern is an expert EOS implementer focused on multi generational family businesses. Sara, welcome back to the show. It feels like only minutes ago we were talking to each other.

Sara B. Stern  01:55

It’s so great to see you again. It's wonderful.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  01:59

We obviously did this is as a thing in two parts. And so we talked in the last episode about balancing family dynamics and business. Today we're gonna be talking about succession planning challenges. And for those of you don't know, Sara, Sara is an expert EOS implementer based over in the US. She's a family business expert. She's been doing family business for forever, and I have been one of her girl fans for a long, long time, because I just love the work that she does. It ties in very naturally the work that I do myself. So again, welcome to the show, Sara.

Sara B. Stern  02:26

It's great to be here. Thank you for having me back.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  02:28

Pleasure. Um, just before we get started, for those who maybe don't know much about you, just give us a little bit of a potted history of how you got into family business.

Sara B. Stern  02:38

Yeah, I, I was raised in a family that my dad and my uncle ran an auto repair shop, and my mom and my aunt helped out. They kind of traded off helping at the shop and taking care of the kids. So I lived inside of that world. All of the jobs I had, I think, until I was something like 35 I was working in a family business and in the small town I grew up in, there was you either worked for the school, you worked for the hospital, you worked for the city, or you worked for a family business. So it's just the world that I was in because it was a small town, my parents also instilled in me that I better grow up and do something that brought huge value in the world. And when I learned that two thirds of the businesses in the US are family businesses, and that that number is higher in other parts of the world, I realised, okay, that's the world where I can make a big difference.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:34

Okay, and so how did you get into it? Like, what did you How does one become a family business advisor?

Sara B. Stern  03:41

Yeah, well, in some ways it was by accident. In the beginning, in 2001 I went to a two year long programme to learn how to become a coach. And most of my clients worked in family businesses. And I think that's because that was the experience I had. I was familiar with that world. Then I later started running a family business centre at a university in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And that's when I really dove in and got really specific about, you know, this is the place. This is how I can make a huge difference in the world. And things took off from there. I found EOS. I started doing other work with family businesses.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  04:20

Beautiful. Well, yeah. And so today we one of the things, because family business is a little bit different to traditional businesses, traditionally privately owned businesses, because of the other dynamics that come into it. And one of those things that happens is this whole succession planning. You know, it's a huge topic, but there are lots of challenges around succession planning and family business. And I guess I wanted to just dive deeper with you and say, and say and find out, what are some of those challenges, and how do we overcome them?

Sara B. Stern  04:47

Yeah, boy, one of the biggest challenges is the current generation, whether it's the first or the second or the third or the fourth or the sixth or the seventh, the. They often feel that they are being pushed out or told to go away, or there's this conflict around why don't you want me here anymore? And then the next generation often feels like they're being micromanaged or they're not being trusted, and why won't you let me step into the role? And so it gets emotional for people, and it often goes as deep as their identity, especially second, third, fourth generation family business owners. They might have come to that business after school. They might have been babysat by people inside of the business, literally, their entire life. The business might be older than that. The business might have been in the family longer than they have. And so it can get really to some core issues around their identity. So it's not just, you know, I'm I sold the business and now I'm out of here. It's, what is my identity if I'm not going there every day? It's probably the biggest one and the hardest one.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:59

Yeah, I can see how that can be a real challenge. There's also some expectations. Isn't those that, you know, if you've got a family business, that somebody in the family will want to kind of step in and take over. And sometimes there are people who are really keen to and sometimes there are people who are just not, but they feel a sense of obligation. So if you're looking at a family business, you're thinking about, hey, actually, I'm just thinking. Often people don't think about succession planning until it's almost too late, but if you are thinking about it early enough, what are the sort of things that you should be thinking about?

Sara B. Stern  06:31

Oh my gosh. So a couple of things. First things first is a lot of people think in their head, and this is what you just alluded to, like, oh, it's not time for me to think about this yet. But the average family business succession takes eight years to complete, and that includes the ones where someone dies and it is forced, you know. So it's one week, and then the other ones where they plan for 20 years, you know. So if you think about eight years as an average, it's quite a bit of an average. So I like to say, if you think about your own age and the age of the next generation people, and then add 10 years, if your age starts to get to be 65-70 or older, it's time to start planning, right? The other thing I like to say is, if your next generation is three, it's still time to start planning, because having a conversation with a 13-year-old about their interest or abilities in the family business is actually quite fruitful, and it's better to have that conversation with a 13 year old than a 23-year-old or a 33-year-old.

So in essence, I'm saying it's always time to start planning. So that's step one is always be planning for succession. The second one is what I think is the hardest question to answer, and the most important is, what do you want? Why would you keep owning it? And I call that that. When I talk about that, I say that's the definition of what your legacy is. And to me, that's two things. As a family business owner, your legacy is, why do you own the business? And as you said, for a lot of people, unfortunately, it's out of obligation. And that's not a reason why you know because, if you know a two year old, right? They say, Why? Why? Why? And eventually you say because. And they do not accept that. That is not an acceptable reason. Because is not an answer. Why do you want to own it? What is it about owning this business? If you absolutely can't come with an answer to that, that should tell you something. So that's the first one, why do you own it? And then the second thing, when I think about legacy, is, what are you trying to create through the ownership of this business that will exist in 100 years? So what is that tree you're planting today that you will not sit under? If you can answer those two questions, that is going to really help guide the way you transition the business from the current generation to the next generation.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  08:48

So let's say you have got that quite clear in your mind. You know why you want to do it. You know exactly what your 100 Year kind of plan is, and what you want to leave as a legacy. How do you start to have those conversations around succession, as in, who might come in and take over the business, or who might want to come and work in the business. How do you even start those conversations?

Sara B. Stern  09:08

You know, it's an awfully convenient thing for me to say when I'm a EOS implementer, and so are you. But I think the first step then, and actually this might even be your first step before you figure out the legacy, is find a way to operate your business, whether it's EOS or another tool that gives you a shared understanding of, how are we going to run a professional business? So really saying, what are the starting with? What are the roles that you need, what are the jobs that need to get done? And then who is good at doing that? And those might be family members, and they might not be. We got to talk about that recently on a podcast, the two of us, right? It might be a family member who's great at it and might not be. That's okay. You can still run the family I'm sorry. You can still own the family business without having people running it.

So get your business organised. Get an operating system in there so that the business are really well organised so that you can get the right people in there. That's the first one. And then the second one is and it's kind of tied for first is start having owners meetings. Most privately held companies, at least the ones I know, don't have owners meetings, they have lots of in the business run the business meetings. But even if they go and sit down and say, we're going to have an owners meeting, they sit down and say, well, now what? What's the difference between being an owner and running the business? And there's a huge difference. So start having those meetings where you're talking about big picture things like, what is our legacy? How much money are we wanting from this business? How much time do we want to get back from owning this business? What? What? Why do we own it? What are we trying to create here? Ask those big questions and answer those big questions as owners.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  10:53

Yeah, that makes perfect sense, and I think you're right that the owners meetings don't happen. Because I think sometimes people think that's like a board meeting, and they don't want to have a formal board meeting, but, and it is like a board meeting, but it's a different type of board meeting, because it really is about the ownership of the assets of the family, whether it be the business, whether it be the buildings and things that belong there, the land that the business done. There's a whole range of things that ownership kind of actually covers.

Sara B. Stern  11:17

Yeah. And, oh my gosh, there's one thing that, unfortunately, people do a lot is they get together to have an owner's meeting, to talk about land and property and the business and whole bunch of stuff. They call it a family meeting. And that drives me bananas. And the reason it drives me bananas is inevitably, usually, often in a family business, the next generation grows up and they get married, and then they keep having these meetings, right? These owners meetings, but they call it a family meeting, and then their spouse feels left out because I'm not a part of the family. What you know, and it causes these this tension and this hurt and this unnecessary conflict, when, if it's an owner's meeting, then you're talking about ownership stuff, and the owners are in that meeting. At a family meeting, all the families should be there. That's a different conversation.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  12:03

Interesting though, just thought about this. So let's imagine, you know, you've got a family business. It's a significant, significant family business that has a number of assets and whatnot. And let's say it's a son that's kind of has a part of that ownership. Surely his wife is actually also an owner. Or are we saying that they're not? I'm wondering how we define what ownership really is.

Sara B. Stern  12:23

That's so interesting, that is a much debated thing, right? So you have a next generation owner, is their spouse, or is their partner an owner? And in some family businesses, that person is an owner. In other family business that businesses, that person is not an owner. I actually argue that it makes sense to have that person there, because they are certainly, if they're a parent, they are the parent of a next generation owner, and having them be in the know about what's happening, my personal opinion is it's valuable to have them right in the room where those decisions are being made. Whether or not they get to vote on it is debatable, right? If they're not an owner and they don't get to vote, fine, but why not have them in the room so that they truly understand and they're not hearing it, you know, basically through a game of telephone, through their spouse?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  13:13

Yeah, and I think that actually makes perfect sense. And I think that, because it's all about communication, right? The more communication you have, the more people on the same page, the better. Things will kind of pan out. I want to go into a real-life example at the moment that I'm working through with a family business where dad, dad and mom started the business many, many, many years ago, just that the two of them together started it from scratch. They now employ over 600 staff all throughout Australia, and the parents are now in their late 70s and so, but they're still working in the business, but they know that they want to get out, and the reason they want to get out is because they want a bit more time, a bit more freedom to do the things they want to do. But they also want to take some money from the business. They want to realise some money and actually use it to enjoy their retirement.

But the challenge is that they are 100% or just about, let's call it 100% owners of the 100% owners of the business. And so in order for them to realise anything from the business, they're going to have to sell a part of the business to bring some cash out of it. And in the meantime, there's a second generation of sons and daughters, some who are interested in working in the business, some who aren't interested in working in the business, and some who, I think are only really interested because it is a way to create money, as opposed to being really passionate about the business. So how do you start to even have these conversations? And I'm sure you must sense a lot where it's been left such a long time now that it's almost become a matter of urgency, as opposed to having been planned for for years in advance?

Sara B. Stern  14:45

Yeah, oh my gosh. So a couple things, I think a really important thing is to figure out, Is there value in the business? Unfortunately, lot, a lot of first generation owners, like this example, you know, they have adult children. I'm guessing they're. Children are in their 40s. You know, they're real adults, right? And no one has looked and said, Well, what is the value of this business? Is there a value if we were to sell it? You know, in the open market, would there be a value or not? So that's the first question is, is there real value here? Are we talking about real money? If the answer to that is yes, then I like to think about what I call an ownership philosophy. And it's as owners, and this would be, in this case, Mom and Dad. What is our philosophy around ownership? Do you have to care about the business? Do you have to have the last name? Do you have to be our child? Do you have to work there, right? What is our philosophy? What is our philosophy about working in the business, what do we want from it? What kind of time and money do we want from it?

And then what are we willing to put into the business? And so I think just answering that philosophically is really important. I worked with a mom and dad in a similar situation to this client that you're talking about. They were closer to their 60s, but their kids were adults, and they had four kids, and they're trying to figure out what to do. I what to do. And actually, the step before the philosophy that I like to help people understand is what are the guiding principles that we've used to make decisions over the years? And most people have had some guides, they just didn't have them written down. So I worked with the mom and dad to get clear on that, and they landed on some really cool stuff. Like they were always motivated to create freedom for themselves and their family. They really valued creating something from nothing. And they truly had both the mom and the dad had come from very poor families, and now here they were running a really successful business. So that was important to them, to to learn to create things from nothing, and there were a couple of other things. Once they created those guiding principles, they use that to decide their ownership philosophy. And what they realised is their original plan was to just gift the business. This is different than your client. My client could actually afford to just give the business. But they realised even though they could give it away. That was not aligned with their guiding principles. What was aligned was their children buying it, and their children having to go out and get the money and talk to a bank and figure out how to actually purchase this business, as if they were purchasing it from someone else, and they had financial people telling them they were dumb, that they shouldn't do that right, but it was actually more aligned with their values to do it that way, even though, financially, I don't understand why there were reasons that that way. So I don't know if I'm answering your question. Gosh, I hope I am.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  17:32

No, you are, because what you're making people think about, hopefully the listeners are thinking about is like, you know, what is your guiding principles? What are your philosophies? And how does that work? And I think that, you know, I think when I think about my client, particularly at the end of the day, it really it's up to the mum and dad what they want to do. It is their business. They own it. They absolutely get to decide what they want to do. But what it's forced us to do is have conversations about who is genuinely interested. What could that look like if they wanted to sort of purchase part of it? What roles do they potentially want to play in the business? And they did go out and get an external valuation, so they know that there's different definitely value in the business, and they've got a potential buyer as well. And I think what it's done is it's a little bit too late, but it's forced them to start thinking about these things and go, what does it actually look like in the future, and how do we make sure that we get what we want and need, but at the same time, we're also leaving a legacy for our family, if they want to. I mean, interestingly, one of the siblings wants absolutely nothing to do with it.

She's like, I'm not interested. I'm financially secure. I have my own family. I'm not interested in it in any way, shape or form. I just want Mum and Dad to be happy, you know? And that's that's beautiful, because that makes it very easy from that perspective. And then we've got the other two siblings, we've got other two siblings who've got different views about, you know, what they think about the business and what they think about mum and dad. So it's, I think it's, you're right. It's about just going back to to real basics and saying, Well, what is it we actually really want, and how do we operate? Has the family always operated? What is it we want to create for the future? Can we do that? And having the discussions openly about what each person actually wants. And I actually gave them some of the questions from your book, and said, Look, go away and think about these. Think about that from a personal perspective. Think about it from a family perspective. Think about from a business perspective, and think about from an ownership perspective. Have a think about what does the future look like for you? And it was, it was fascinating that they'd never been asked that before. And I think this happens a lot in family businesses. It's like bit like when you first become a business owner, we're expected to know how to run a business, but nobody teaches us in a family business, we're expected to know how a family business operates. But who's teaching, you know?

Sara B. Stern  19:39

Yeah, who's doing that? Well, luckily, hopefully you are. I mean, obviously you are, and hopefully I am, is what I was meaning to say there. I'm loving this story. I know of a family business. They had four children, and the advice they were given was to put the business in a trust, and their four homes in a trust, and their art collection. In a trust and have their children own it together. That was, I guess, the financially smart way to do it. And then we sat down and started talking, and two of their kids didn't particularly get along, and those were the two middle kids, and the oldest and the youngest were almost 20 years apart, so they were very different, like they'd kind of grown up in two different families, you know, so they didn't have a lot of in common.

And so we started talking about, you know, what is all this governance? They're going to have to set up so their four children can share these properties in this business? I finally said, why? You know, what do you do? You really want your children to have to manage all this together? And they said, No, they just told us that was the financial thing. I said, Well, that doesn't mean you have to do it. So then they said, Okay, what is the business worth, and what are the properties worth, and what is the value? And then they said, What would be an equal distribution? And then who wants these things? And then, in the end, nobody really wanted the business anyway, right? So, but it was going to be that the four kids were going to have to run this business together. Think of what a nightmare, what a nightmare. Instead, they sold the business for an amazingly beautiful amount of money, and they divided that up in four, and they sold their properties, and it was just much more simple, so much more simple.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  21:14

That's really interesting, because one of the things we've been talking about with this family, particularly, is like, you know, unless somebody is really, really keen to continue to run that business, and wants to take, you know, ownership of it, and whatever the other option is to sell it, because you can sell it and you can actually realise money, which still provides a legacy for the family going forward. And you can then, sometimes, investing that money in something else, other than a business, can provide the same rate of return or a better rate of return. It's not all the it's not always that you have to keep the business in the family for it to benefit.

Sara B. Stern  21:45

We talk about this all day. I just, I know a family business, nobody in the next generation was excited to run the business. They just didn't. They didn't have the leadership skills to do it, and they decided that, since they didn't have that, it didn't make sense to own it. They're selling the business, and they're going to create a foundation. They're excited to give away money together. That's something that the next generation thought they would be good at doing together, and that's beautiful. And the owning generation is thrilled that their legacy will continue and that their kids will have a project they're working on together, but it's not going to be this business where they're having to figure out how to pay nearly 100 people and have all of that stress. Instead, they get the joy of figuring out and fighting about, do we give money to the earth or to the animals? You know, that’s their new conflict. Isn't that beautiful?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  22:39

I love it. I love it. And I think you've highlighted a really important point here too. It's like, we need to get financial and legal advice when the time is right. But I think sometimes we put the horse before the cart, and so we go, then we get the financial and legal advice, which is very much driven around, what's the right thing to do and what will get us the best rate of return, or what is the best legal way to kind of protect ourselves. But if you don't actually know what you're wanting to achieve, then it's probably the wrong answer. And it's, you know, it's that whole Anderson Wonderland thing. And if you don't know, if you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there, yeah. So I think that my my advice is always, you know, come and have a session with somebody like yourself or myself who can actually help you get really clear on those things. And then once you've nutted all of that out, and you've worked out what that looks like, and you've worked out what the business looks like, then you can go and get the legal and the financial advice to make the most of it.

Sara B. Stern  23:31

Absolutely. You know what is so beautiful about what you just said is you accidentally said, sometimes we put the horse before the cart around the it's so beautiful that you put it that way. Because I think a lot of people would argue that if you're saving money on the on the taxes or right that, that you are putting the horse before the cart right, that that is the right order. So I love that error that you made there. Perfect. I'm sorry to point it out, but I know your listeners would anyway, and so here we go. Now. It's all tied up, and they get to see you. Be so humble and gracious about that so but here's what I think is so great I or a thing that I like to say to people is, maybe you're going to save money on taxes now, but how many dollars of illegal fees will the next generation pay to have to do this or to have to fight with each other, and is that worth it? So know what you want, and then take that to your legal folks and your financial folks and let them build the world that you want to have, yeah, for your next generation.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  24:38

Perfect. Love it. Yeah. Okay, so we've talked a little bit about succession planning. And you know what happens? We have to first of all, understand what we want for the future, for the legacy of the family business and whatnot. What about when we can't get agreement? I'm sure you must have seen that. How do we how do we work through that?

Sara B. Stern  24:56

Yeah, that is a bummer. First of all. Yeah, and, you know, movies and TV might like to make it look like agreement never happens, which is not true. Agreement mostly happens. I'm sure you see over and over and over, agreement happened that isn't somebody has sacrificed themselves, but it's that they've truly come to agreement. In that case, I lean heavily on professionals who do things that I'm not trained to do. So it's either people who are really good at mediation or people who are really good at therapy or counselling, or psychologists who help get people in the room and figure out what they want to do. And then if it has to go the legal route, it has to go to the legal route. But I've seen lots of great success happen when other professionals come in and help people come to, you know, come to conclusion and find answers together.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  25:49

And I think what I've experienced is it often doesn't need to get to that, because it's often we just haven't had the conversations and not in an open manner. And I said, it goes back to that whole thing, that we often be sidebar conversations where people are talking to each other, but they're not actually having the open conversation with the whole family. And when you get them in a room and you start having the conversations together, they start to realise there's a lot more commonality than they actually thought that there was.

Sara B. Stern  26:14

Yes. I mean, it's so rare if people are willing to talk to each other, even if there is going to be conflict, if they're willing to sit around a table and talk to each other, they're going to come to agreement, in my experience, if they're not willing to come into the room, that's a whole different situation.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  26:31

Yeah. Then we've got different, different thing to deal with all together. So I guess what we're saying is, you know, it's great to be really clear about those three circles, the ownership, the family and the business. Be really clear about what each role you play within those and then be really clear about what your ultimate end goal is as a family business, in terms of what the legacy you want to leave. And then you can start to develop the guidelines, the principles, all those things around it. And I think one of the things I want to be really clear about is, you know, you don't all have to be in this together. If the family doesn't like working together, doesn't want to be working together, doesn't want to own things jointly, it's okay to say no.

Sara B. Stern  27:09

Yeah. Just because it happened for three generations before you doesn't mean you have to do it. Just because your parents want you to, or your grandparents want you want you to, doesn't mean you have to do it. And I, what I see happen a lot is one generation thinks the next generation wants it. The next generation thinks the owning generation wants them to have it. But nobody's actually saying, I don't know. I'm not really into it, or I, gosh, I'd rather sell it to someone else for more money. So it's that that listening to yourself, and getting clear and then saying, Okay, here's what I want. And of course, being willing to not get what you want, I think, is one really important thing, is just finding the way to say what Well, first of all, figure out what you want and then say what you want, makes a huge difference.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  27:57

And being really clear about that and being able to have those open conversations. Okay, perfect. I know that you're working on your third book now. So you've got your start here, book, which is really about business owners and making sure the family business has an understanding of those three circles and how that works out. We've got married to the family business, which is more for the spouses of the business. And the third book that you're writing tell us a bit about that.

Sara B. Stern  28:18

Yes, I'm writing this book. It's called How to Fail in Your Family Business, a Foolproof Guide. It was inspired by this really funny, really smart business guy in the US named Alex Hormozi, who wrote how to stay poor. And it was all these really funny things like, have a big idea, don't pursue it, don't read books, you know, things like that. So I started writing, you know how to fail in your family business, things like refuse to fire your family members, even if they're not good at their job, things like that. And that has now turned into a book that the beginning is those short little things about how to fail, and then the second part of the book is how to succeed, and talks about things like building your legacy and making sure that you have a great system to run your business. Things like that.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  29:05

Beautiful. I know I followed that when you were doing that on LinkedIn and sharing all those things that have had me in stitches every day, because it was just so it was so clever, but also so real. It was like, Yeah, you see it happening all the time. So what are the three? I mean, if you think about the three biggest things that help a family business to fail? What do you think they are?

Sara B. Stern  29:23

Oh my gosh. The three biggest things to help a family business to fail. Okay, my top three will say. My top three is make people run the business who have no skills or ability or interest. Just say you have to do it. That's a really good way to fail. A second, really good way to fail is to assume that conflict is bad and avoid it at all costs. I think that's a really, really effective way to fail. And then the third one, I'd say, is to forget that ownership is different than running it, and to think that running it and owning it has to be the exact. Same thing. Perfect.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  30:01

Love it. I'm looking forward to seeing the book. Okay, I'm going to ask you, as I always do, three top tips or tools for people listening in thinking about the succession planning for their family business. What would you say are those three top tips or tools?

Sara B. Stern  30:13

You know, it's amazing. I came prepared here, and we've talked about all three, and I was tempted to go wild and crazy and come up with something else, but they really are my top three. And so that's hidden, yeah, the first one is when you have owners meetings, and you're talking about the ownership of the business. Call it an owners meeting. Don't call it a family meeting. It will cause unnecessary conflict. My second one is figure out what you want as a person. Sit with yourself. Figure out what is it I want. Know that you might not get it, but be clear on what you want as an individual. Yep. And then my third is that legacy piece. So figure out what you want the legacy of your family business to be. And just a reminder, it's two things, why do we keep owning it? And it can't be just because, right? Why do we keep owning it? And then what are we creating that will exist in 100 years?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  31:18

Beautiful. So just a quick recap. So don't owners meetings do please call them owners meetings. Don't call them family meetings that will cause tension and friction within the family. So call them what they are. They are an owners meeting. Figure out what you really want, but obviously know that you may not get exactly what you want, but if you're clear about what you want, you can go into those meetings and negotiations with an understanding of that and then the family legacy. So why do we actually keep owning the business and what are we creating that will exist in 100 years? Yeah, love it really, really great questions to be asking ourselves. Hey, Sara, as always, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.

Sara B. Stern  31:54

Oh, glad we got to hang out today. Thank you for having the same piano. Thank you.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  32:00

I'm sure we'll see you back again, but and thank you in the meantime.

Sara B. Stern  32:01

Have a great day. Thank you.