Ian Murray: The Hard Truth About Implementing EOS as a Visionary

Ian Murray  00:00

Decided to run a business. Where has this been? Why was this not taught in school? There's some genius that in the work that Gino did in making this that forces even our clients, as we're bringing them through ELS, to become more abundance minded. We were meetings for meetings for meetings. Two things were happening. Nothing was getting done because we were just in meetings when we got rid of that and forced everybody to flush those issues into the L pen. It made them be more healthy to bring the stuff up and to address each other more one on one.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:39

Welcome to another episode of Better Business, better business, better life. I am your host, Debra Chantry-Taylor, and I'm passionate about helping entrepreneurs live their ideal life through creating a better business. I started this podcast to be able to share with you the highs and lows of being an entrepreneur through some of the things that I've been through, but also through my guest. Today's guest is very interesting. He is a father of nine year old triplets, a business owner, self confessed visionary, and also now an EOS implementer. On the surface, he was running a really successful business, and everybody from the outside in thought, wow, this is amazing. But in reality, his we was paddling very fast under the water, and it only really hit him when he broke down a cherry farmer gave him a traction book, and that traction book changed his life. He listened to it on Audible on the way home from this meeting, and that was the beginning of a change in his life. Today, he's going to share with you how to roll out traction for your team, not to your team. One of the biggest mistakes visionaries often make is rolling traction out to the team, not for them. So I'm really pleased to welcome Ian Murray, who is an EOS implementer and also the visionary of Murray insurance. Welcome to the show, Ian. Hey. Welcome to the show, Ian, it's great to have you on board.

Ian Murray  01:57

How are you today? Thank you so much for having me. I'm fantastic. How about you? Yeah? No. Really good.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  02:01

Thank you. Yeah, looking forward to the weekend and but had a great week as well. We are both EOS implementers, and you've been an EOS implementer now for, I think, sort of around about 18 months, but you have been an EOS fan for much longer. I wonder if you could give us a little bit of your history. How did you get to come across EOS and become an EOS implementer?

Ian Murray  02:20

Yeah, it's a good question. Long journey. So I also own an insurance agency. So around the age of 23 actually opened up an insurance agency. We moved. We were living in this town, London, Ontario, and this opportunity came up in Kingsville, Ontario, and we opened up an insurance agency there. Didn't know anybody. I did basically, had never been to Kingsville, really, before in my life. Maybe I played hockey there once as a kid, but yeah, so we just went on a whim and and decided to move and we started building this insurance agency, and we're doing really well. Things were growing and, and, but I was, I was just running around like a chicken with my head cut off. I remember at one point in time, it was like a Sunday night. We just got we used to have a boat, and we just got in from the boat, and it was like 10 o'clock at night, and people are texting me. He's like, hey, I need a quote on a pull my laptop up, and I'm doing the quote. And this went on for a long time, and ultimately, I mean just between I just, for some reason, couldn't get everyone in my office to kind of follow along with my exact how I would deal with a client. I just was always frustrated. I was just, I was probably always angry, is what I was, but it just, I don't know I would joke with my wife, and just like I don't know why I'm a business owner, it would be easier if I was just a salesperson, because, you know, the amount of time and emotional energy I'm pouring into this, this agency, the juice just wasn't really worth the squeeze. It wasn't worth the investment. That I was putting in, and I always loved, I'm big on energy, and I always love to go inside a conference, or I love going to and listen to like a podcast or read a book, and come into my team and like, hey guy, I got this new idea. We're going to do this the one day my my one team member said to me, after I literally have laid this entire new plan that we're gonna go down, she laughs, and she says to the two other people that are in the agency, if we just stay quiet long enough, Ian's gonna forget about this and he's gonna move on to something else. I was like, wow. So long story short was I ended up just so stressed out with trying to run that business that I ended up with gastritis. And then right after I got rid of the gastritis, found out we were having triplets, so I was able to take a little bit of time off with the kids. Because obviously, you know, feeding 24 hours a day, three, three on. Three off. It was, I got back in the business, and I think the kids are around two around this time and again. I'm just stressed the nines again, and I'm in my kitchen, and my three kids are around me, and they're, you know, doing their two year old things and yelling at them. And they all go running, and I ended up sitting in my kitchen. I just cried, man, something's got to change. So I knew that I was just I didn't know how or what was needed to change. I knew I needed to get less stress in my life. So I went to strategic coach, and I was trying to go through all their material and and I was griping and moaning about all my issues in the business. And this, this cherry farmer from Northern Michigan hands me the book traction. And I'm just a big believer in like stuff, stuff brought you at the right time, like when you're ready to listen, and and when you're, you know, maybe fed up enough that you're, you're actually going to do something. It showed on my plate. And I got a four hour drive home from Toronto, and I just, I decided to download an audible and listen to all the way home. And I was like, decide to run a business. Where is this been? Why was this taught in school? I just, I, I I would. I was just obsessed. And I think I must have reread that thing three or four, five times and and then, of course, like a typical visionary, I immediately was like, we're gonna implement this. So, you know, I'm starting my L 10 meeting. I don't even have a VPO created at L 10 meeting. Let's go. I don't even have a scorecard. We're building the scorecard. And like the L 10 meeting, my team, what are we doing? Everyone? Give me a piece of good news.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  06:44

Go. I'm laughing because I'm sure there's a whole bunch of visionaries who are listening into this who probably done exactly the same thing. And, you know, they haven't even considered, I mean, the most important tool is probably the accountability chart, and that's way off in that they haven't even considered that.

Ian Murray  07:00

I hadn't even, no, I hadn't even cracked the accountability chart. Yeah, I probably started jotting some things down into into the VTO at that point. And again, I went to it. We were three weeks in. I gave up because, you know, it's just too much accountability. I must to try to do it. I No one has implemented worse or EOS worse than I have, it's, it's not plausible.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  07:23

So. And how are the team feeling? Because the team, you know, they probably were going, Oh, here we go again. Another one of Ian's ideas.

Ian Murray  07:30

It's whiplash. And then every time I'm redoing on my guys, this time's different. It's a stick. I mean, the only thing beneficial was, it was the same thing that I was trying to make stick, and then I had convinced my wife is, you know, when we were raising triplets together, we just everything worked so well between us. And I was like, This is unbelievable, like we're working as a team, and everything's smooth. And, you know, you're kind of organising me and I'm getting this stuff done. And I was like, Hey, do you want to come in and be the integrator at the company, and she had this really great pharmaceutical career, but apparently I'm a pretty good salesperson, so typical vision revision was consulted ice to Eskimos, can't my wife was often said, you just, you just get her so passionate about I just kind of get swept up in it. But I had said to her, Hey, let's, you know, come on board. Let's, let's do this. So she came on board, and I did the most unfair thing in the entire world. I handed her the book traction, and I was like, implement this. So again, we probably had a few other false starts just from that. I mean, even, like we did, like an EOS rollout, and I don't think any of our tools were really even completed. We're just telling people what their jobs are. We have that accountability. Are like, you're doing this now. And the first thing, I'm not even really the guy good at that, and I really that role should be over. And we're like, it's just the way. So again, a few more false starts. Broke my nose a few more times, and then we finally said, Okay, let's hire an EOS implementer, so we hired John weenie, and our lives changed. The business took off like a bottle rocket. Things started to smooth out. The team really understood that they had a voice. They were, you know, so much more involved, you know, from bringing the issues up that are at the front line, making sure that it got up to us, and just so much more buy in, and a lot of that just such great direction from John, and just as using the tools correctly as well.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  09:30

And I think this is, again, one of the things I see a lot with self implementers, is they can't the visionary reads the book, and they go, I can do this. And then they do everything themselves. As you said. They just tell people, This is what it's and the team's just sitting there kind of going, you know, if you give anybody anything without any context or any contribution, there's no ownership, there's no accountability, there's no engagement.

Ian Murray  09:49

yeah, and I say this a lot of times with my ELS teams. Now, as you know are, when you're rolling this out, you're rolling it out for them, not to them. At the end of the day there, there are issues that are in the business that they're feeling the effects from, whether it's the whiplash from the from the visionary or not understanding the strategic direction of the company and and this is really for them, and so they can live a better life inside of the business. But oftentimes, you know, we as visionaries, and specifically, probably when we're self implementing, we're doing it to them. This is your new role. This is the seat you're sitting in.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  10:29

I have to share. I had, I had a potential client who actually ran me one time. They said, Look, you know, we want to work with it, with an implementer. We've been self implementing. We thought we were self implementing for some time. We've actually realised was self inflicting. And I thought that was just such a perfect phrase, self inflicting.

Ian Murray  10:45

Yeah, I was self inflicting. That's right, that's exactly what I was doing. So it really took off. I kind of worked myself out of a conventional job inside of the agency by that point in time. And there was, I mean, listen, there were so many things. I don't know how deep we want to get, but I mean, in working with John, you know, really trying to figure out, you know, the our 10 year target, and really trying to figure out what our core focus was. And I remember our core focus at one point in time, the why we exist, right? It was to be the biggest insurance agency in Canada, and I remember, so we had done this with him, and it was kind of our second time around, or I don't know maybe it was at a quarterly, but as you're reviewing the BTO, and he goes, is that really what you want? Because he goes, I never really hear you talking about and both my wife and I looked at each other and we're like, No, we actually don't care. We're both being the biggest trans agency in Canada that doesn't that doesn't get me out of bed at all. And he really pressed us on that. And where we ended up with the agency was to build health, wealth, time and purpose for our team members. That was our why, and man, that changed everything, because then that that made us start thinking about, okay, let's bring in a profitability bonus and really start giving profits back to the team and really setting a 10 year target for where we want that profitability bonus to be. So everything really got built around the team, because that was the most important part, and it was the thing that got us out of bed in the morning, but without his help and without pushing us, we wouldn't have got there.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  12:29

And it is so important.

Ian Murray  12:32

Yeah, yeah, it really was so as as he worked our way again on that core focus was at one point in time, I because a typical visionary things have gone so well with the insurance agency, I decided to put a financial planning company inside the insurance agency. Of course, yes, because it all just meshes so well. But, and as we're doing this outcome, we're finally realised I'm good at financial planning, because I ended up having my CFP, my CLU and all these letters behind my name, and we just didn't have the availability to really bring in more people for that. That's not where our bread and butter was. I mean, if I probably ran my my backwards numbers and was probably earning like $1 an hour financial planning practice, so we cut that out. But what I loved about financial planning, I loved that helping somebody, like, really getting clear over their goals. So in financial planning, the big thing I would talk about is, you know, what is that you actually want? So you'd say, like, what are the three things? And everyone goes well, family is the most important thing to me, and time with my kids and time with my spouse. And I'd say, Okay, well, Paul, let's get your budget up, and let's, let's take a look. Where are you spending your money? Let's highlight those areas where the top three things are being spent and that would like blow their head off. You're right. So I always had this, this idea in financial planning, let's, yes, let's get you a plan for retirement, but at the end of the day, take the rest of that money. Bend it where it makes you happy, because you're saying that your family is your number one priority and makes you happy as well. Let's start spending money on that. So I love that, that advising and just getting them clear. And as I was talking to John, as we're as we're graduating, I said, How do I do what you do? Because that's what you've done for us, and that's what I miss from financial planning, which from the company. And he goes, Yeah, I'll set you up with a contact and and that's how I ended up here today. I just, I really missed that then really making a difference in people lives. And I love entrepreneurs. They just, I love the way they think. I love the way they speak. It's, I'm an entrepreneur as well, and it just, everything just connects so much better.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  14:52

There's a long winded start, no, that's, that's absolutely fabulous, and that's one of the things that I love too. Is when i i say i came across EOS because they launched into New Zealand News. My event space, and I they got left me a couple of books, and I tried to read traction, found it boring as batshit. Read the Get a grip, got completely hooked on it, and then when I decided to sort of sign up to do it, the thing I loved about EOS is that EOS implementers come from an entrepreneurial background. They're not theoretical. They're not just a coach that's got some certification that says I can put together a plan for you. You know, we've been there. We've done that. Some of us are still doing it. We're walking in the shoes we've we've had the highs, we've had the lows. And that brings a certain empathy, a certain understanding, but it also means we can ask the right questions as well. Because, you know, we're not about we're not consultants in terms of giving the answers, but we know the questions to ask based on the experiences that we've we've had, I think this community is is incredible.

Ian Murray  15:43

I mean, from the world that I come from, with insurance, and I think it has to do a little bit with just the business side. I mean, there's our core values with Eos, which, you know, people live and breathe. But there's also this beautiful thing then, you know, you only have 15 to 25 clients, right? And your plates full, you just really don't have any more time. EOS implementers are still abundance mindseted. Whereas, you know, I come from an insurance world where, in theory, you can take on as much business as you want. People get a bit territorial and kind of creating those same strategic relationships in the insurance world isn't as common this, this world is just beautiful, and honestly, it's it's funny, I there's some genius that in the work that Gino did in making this that forces even our clients, as we're bringing them through ELS, to become more abundance minded. Yeah, I've had a couple clients come to me and did this has changed the way even operated. Whole I'm trying to look at things through like a more an empathetic lens and and put more heart into it. It's, yeah, it's, it's just incredible. And then, of course, Gino going off and doing the inner work. Now, I guess there's a good reason why he did that.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  17:06

I'm going to dive deeper into the EOS stuff that you're doing. So you're working with clients now, but you're still running the agency as well, in terms of, you know, in your own business, but also with the clients that you work with. Is there a favourite tool, a tool that you kind of think that it really gives you that light bulb moment where it's moment where something kind of clicks, and you get this, is it?

Ian Murray  17:25

I love the VTO, and maybe it's because I'm a visionary, but I really, really do love the VTO. And I think, I mean, we talked a little bit earlier, you know, with John walking us through and really clarifying our vision inside our inside of our insurance agency. And that changed everything for us. It changed our entire trajectory of where our organisation went, and got so much more buy in from the organisation. And also we just brought on a brand new operations manager, and I was the last interview. So everyone on the leadership team did the interviews. I was the last interview. I did the core value speech, and then I also just did the detail walk through. So I just walked through it, and she bought into it. And honestly, the company she was in before it had, it had more, probably long term opportunities for her in terms of stepping stones, because it was such an enormous organisation. But when someone can see where you're going, and when they can see, yes, I can be part of this 10 years down the road, and I can, I can even do, you know, not just a different title, but I can do inner work inside of this organisation, and become better at myself, just as myself, I don't know. I think that's just such an underrated tool. And I've said this to small business owners, people who maybe only have four or five employees do the VTO, because they're always saying, Well, I'm just a stepping stone company. You don't have to be a stepping stone company. Like, if you build a compelling vision for where you're going.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  19:07

You don't have to lose people because they want to help you get there too, which is why I think the three year picture, specifically is one of my favourite tools, because I think that, yes, of course, you've got to know where you're going in terms of long term but the three year picture, I always whenever I have them launch the VTO to the organisation, I get them to actually ask all, all of their team, to close their eyes as they go through it. And I will normally, you know, if I'm if I'm privileged to be there while they're doing it, I actually watch the people in the room. And I say to the senior, watch the people in the room, because when they close their eyes and you start describing that three year picture, you can tell immediately who's going to be there in three years time, because the smile, kind of the grin, comes on their face. You can see them visualising it, getting really excited. And you can see the ones that even though their eyes are closed, they're rolling their eyes and kind of going, Yeah, whatever. They're not going to be here in three years time. You just know that from the way you describe it. So I love that as a tool.

Ian Murray  19:51

I really love that I'm going to make sure I tell my teams that you know when you're rolling that BGo out, get the team to close their eyes, have them visualise it there, too.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  20:00

Great. I did it with a team over in New Zealand, about 120 staff all around New Zealand, somewhere, on Zoom, somewhere, in person as they I was very privileged to be there as they launched it. And the I, the CEO, the visionary, kind of gave that, that speech. And I say it was really obvious, though there was a lot of them. You could just see this, this massive grin appearing on their face. And you kind of get the them, they're seeing it, they bought into it. They'll be there. Yeah, that's great. Okay, so, yeah, the VTO. So what's the biggest pitfall with the VTO? Because, I mean, the VTO is a very powerful tool, but there are, I think there's several pitfalls. But what do you think are the some of the pitfalls around particularly people are self implementing.

Ian Murray  20:37

I mean, listen, I think one of the issues with self implementing is, it's just not understanding fully what each section is. And let's, I mean, let's kind of walk through a couple that core values. I mean, I've taken a couple self implementing companies, and they've done the core values based upon what's the leadership team level. And I'm going to tell you also this is that is, at least from what I've noticed is that their core values only speak to leadership team level. In terms of it, this doesn't speak to the guy who's pushing the broom on on the shop level, you know. Is he supposed to be a strategic thinker? Is is that his job? You know, and, and I think that's one major issue when they build it just for the leadership team. I think another, one thing I was talking about with the core focus is that they, they don't really take the time to to that's soul work right there, right like you really got to get to the why of why you do what you do, and so many organisations default to a growth idea with that, or, you know, number of clients, I don't know it just it doesn't speak to me, and I don't think it speaks to them, because you don't really see them light up with it. And I know the difference that that it really made with us. And then the other spot that I do find it is in the marketing strategy. We talk about those three uniques, you know, and I'll see self employment implementer be like, we've been in business for 30 years. I'm like, Okay, why have you been in business for 30 years? Because that's not a unique thing about you, but the reason why you've been around for 30 years, there's something unique there. Maybe we want to dig even deeper. It's really like, what is the problem that you're solving for your clients? Let's find the problems that you solve, the three major problems that you solve, and let's get those in there. But I find those tend to be a bit fluffy as well.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  22:42

That's a fair point. How about you? Well, I think that I the biggest thing I see is, yes, not understanding what each the purpose of each of those things are, so the kind of the context and be able to dig deep enough to get to the real what's really driving, if you like, but also not involving the team in it. So most, most visionaries, will read the traction book and they'll go, Great, I'll go great, I'll go and answer those eight questions, and they'll kind of write them all down. And you know, you have to sometimes convince them we're going to do the core values again, and it's not there's anything wrong with your core values, but if we do it with the team, we might end up in exactly the same place that we started, but at least they've had some input into it, and they've understood why they exist or what it is about them so, you know, and sometimes it's a little tweak, you know, I've seen it where they've had these core values forever, and then, no, these are definitely our core values. But then when you do it with the team, and the whole team getting involved, whole leadership team getting involved, sometimes a tiny little word change can actually make a significant difference to the way that that value is actually then, you know, the core value speech is written, and the way it's actually perceived same with things like the core focus, you know, it can just be having the input. You might still got the same essence, but there's something about it that now the team understands how we got there, what it means, what it means for them, and they feel like they've had some input into it. So that's the thing I see, is that when you work with an implementer, they're going to, you know, they make sure the whole team has input into it, and therefore they've got that buy in.

Ian Murray  24:03

Do you always find it funny that as you're working with teams who have implemented they're shocked at how much time it actually takes to go through each one of those tools, because it's so different when you're when you're sitting alone with your traction bug and VTO and you're just jotting it out as the visionary versus getting everybody actually on the same page. And I've had this said multiple times. I didn't think that was going to take seven hours today. I thought, I thought for sure we were going to be out of here by noon, because I already had it done.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  24:33

Yep, I see that, and especially with the accountability chart. Because they some some of them do not have accountability chart. Some of them do, but again, they haven't actually had the whole team involved. And I've had some great, great accountability chart sessions where we've revisited what they put together, and because we've done it with the team, there's been a change in in positions, because all of a sudden somebody goes, well, actually, I wouldn't mind putting my hand up for that role. I think I'd be really. Good at it, whereas, when it's just been put onto a piece of paper said, This is what you're doing, nobody has any chance to actually go, well, well, hold on a second.

Ian Murray  25:09

I'd like to give that a try 100% when we rolled out the accountability chart the first time to my insurance team. And it's the typical on the service side of things. And I think there was four people in service at that point in time, and I had just written out, these are the roles. You're in that one, you're in that one, you're in that one, you're in that one. And then as I was stepping away, my wife had had stepped into my position, and she was redoing so they were in a quarterly, like, with just a department quarterly, and she pulled up the accountability chart, and she did something really cool, because they all kind of have this same role. They're all customer service. But there may be a few nuance of like, this person has to make sure that, you know, a non page, that they can get people who miss payment. This person's really kind of working on some compliance stuff, but at the end of the day, they have to take incoming phone calls and deal with stuff. So she said, Hey, listen, let's write all your stuff up on the board. So it's funny, she did what Walt Brown does in what he talks about. She wrote all the roles up on the board, and then kind of organised them all, and then put them into the seats, and then they're like, What seat would you like? And they organise it, and boom. And everyone was so happy because they got input. And as I'm saying, like, then EOS is working for them, not and we're not and we're not putting it we're not doing it to them.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  26:22

Now I completely agree. And as I've had some amazing sessions where, you know, in the leadership team, a sales the beat, the sales person, the sales accountability person, actually sort of saw the operations thing and went, I actually really want to do that. And when we went through the process of, you know, do your GW, see it? They absolutely did, and they swapped. And we're not this is a company that been going for 30 years, and they'd never had those conversations. And so sometimes these little nuggets kind of come out. It's like, oh my gosh. Would never have thought of that. But turns out they were an awesome operations person, yeah,

Ian Murray  26:56

It's such an incredible system, and I'm so happy that I still get to do it. I'm still sitting every week in my in my weekly leadership at L 10 meeting, right? There's so much that happens in between those 90 days, right? And I get to see that from my clients perspective, in terms of, you know, I meet with them, I gotta get a session tomorrow with a team that, you know, I had my check in midway through, and I've had conversations because they're friends of ours. I've had conversations with them, you know, throughout the quarter. But so different than being in it every single week, and, you know, having to IDs every single week and do it properly and keep it on track. Like, I have so much empathy for these teams, because I know that you know the saying that you know it's simple, but it's not easy. It's so true, and I can't be frustrated with my team, because, I mean, they still have a business to run in the day to day, and this stuff is not not easy to get done, and day on track doing all the time, but the one that do, man, they see great success,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  28:08

and they see it quite quickly, I think, I mean, this is the thing that I've sort of realised, is those who really commit to the process and who really give it their all, it can actually make a significant difference in as little as three months. I reckon, if you're really, you know, putting the effort in, yeah, not, not completely, you know, it takes a while to get it in fully embedded, but nevertheless, you can actually start to see significant changes in that first 90 days.

Ian Murray  28:30

Yeah, absolutely you can. And honestly, and they are. They're bragging about it, like they're coming to you and telling you, wow, this is making such a huge difference. We're doing our week real 10 meetings. It's just a matter of consistency. You have to get practice at it every single week.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  28:48

I agree, and I'm very grateful, as we shared before the podcast, I'm still running businesses as well as being an EOS implementer, and I'm the same. I'm in a level 10 meeting once a week and once a fortnight. For the other business, it's, it just keeps your finger on the pulse in terms of the tools. And you do realise it's, it is easy to say. It's not also always so easy to do, for sure.

Ian Murray  29:09

Yeah. And even makes you, it makes you so much better in your sessions, too, right? Because now, as you're having to teach these tool to have the fact that you you have some personal stories of, you know, being in the trenches working with them, versus hearing it secondhand from one of your clients. It adds so much more rich context to it, and it allows you to explain in a bit of a different way.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  29:33

Okay, so I'd love to hear one of your client success stories, because you've been doing this for a while now. So, you know, yeah, can you give me an example, without giving away this sort of the client, or any sort of secret details, but a client that came into you with one of those, we were talking about the five frustrations, but came in with one or all five of them, and how it's gone with them.

Ian Murray  29:51

I had a really cool one, and it happened in a focus day, which is hard because, I mean, I know there's a lot of ahas and unfocused day. But it had some information prior, and he was a bit frustrated with one of the people on his leadership team. And as we were working through everything in the morning, I was going, Oh, this is everything's pretty smooth. I kind of thought the hiccup was going to be right around the accountability chart. Everything went by smoothly. And we're getting to rock setting, and I'm writing the rocks up on the board as we're going around everyone's stuff, potential rocks. And I can't remember the specifics of what was said, but something was said by the one leadership team member and the visionary had said something. I looked at the things that were written, I went, well, that that seems strange. And they were basically calling each other out in a row, like, you need to do this and you need to do that. I said, that seems strange, is it, can we, can we kind of delve into that a little bit? And sure enough, kind of a fight ensues. And there had been a lot of stuff, a lot of undercurrents, of things that, you know, miss, misunderstandings that have been happening over a number of years. And the one person leadership team said, You know what, I quit. And the visionary said, You say this every week. Well, this goes back and forth for a number of times. And finally, I wrote. I walked up to the board and I thought, you know, we need to make a change there. It was very evident. I mean, I'm going to be really honest with it. It was probably two hours of trying to peel back this onion. And I also had some information prior to walking into the session from the visionary. But at the end of day, I had written up on the board replacement for one of the leadership teams. This leadership team's name, and I said, Is this the rock for this quarter, or is this one of the potential rocks? And then, and the leadership leader looked at me and said, Yeah, I'm done. I said, Okay, well, how do we want to proceed? Are we going to reschedule the day? You know, are you leaving and and are we going to continue on? And they ultimately said, you know, we would like to continue. He leaves. We get to the end of the session.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  32:04

Oh, so he actually left the session.

Ian Murray  32:06

Actually left the session cool, and we finished everything off. So obviously one of the rocks was, you know, really replacing him. And we get to end in session. Everyone marks it down as a 10, and they said we have been trying to to get rid of him, or to have him, like quit or leave or or or get into a better mood for four years, and we just got it done in a morning. So that's focus day. Fast forward to, I think, had their quarterly not that long ago, and, and it has said things are amazing. You know, that person's gone and they really were a poor core values fit, and everyone's happier in the office. Everyone's happier in the organisation. We have a great potential hire for replacement for them, but everyone really has congealed together to, you know, fill that vacuum that happened inside of the organisation. I just thought, how cool is that?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:09

And the cool thing is that the person who left would be happier too, because I think this is what a lot of visionaries, particularly we're not so good at making these tough calls, right? Because he's been with us for four years, and we love him in a row. But the reality is, if you're unhappy with with him or her, they're probably also desperately unhappy. And so letting them go works both ways. They get to go be happy somewhere else, and the rotten apple effect is removed, because that's what happens, right? That one person can actually affect the entire organisation, and he has moved on.

Ian Murray  33:39

And actually, this company. It's funny, this company, he works for another company that they actually do work with, so they still have a connection there. But no, you're right, because, and I truly believe that once those words kind of come out of your mouth that I quit, you have mentally somehow check out. You're not happy. So this was a win win for everybody inside of the organisation. And what a nicer way to do it than be inevitable firing that may have had to have happened.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  34:09

Yeah. I mean, I think this is one of the things about Eos, right? We always say it's like taking a massive spotlight and shining into every corner of the business. It highlights things very quickly. It's just how you're going to deal with it, but it gives you the tools to take the emotion out of it. I think that's the most important part, for me, is that EOS gives you the tools to take the emotion out of it. So you're making decisions based on what is for the greater of the business, rather than getting personal. And people start to realise that they are the wrong fit, and you haven't got to push them out. They're going to make their own decision and and decide it's not for them.

Ian Murray  34:41

Yeah, actually, you, you hit it on the head there. I had another company that it was two partners inside of the organisation, and they just couldn't come to agreeance on, on where, where this company was going. They ended up splitting. And they. One owner called me the one day, and he said, Hey, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for EOS. My partner and I were able to split amicably. And normally, in my head, what I would have to do is make up this story about how they ruined everything and get angry at them. And he said, I just keep repeating in my head, hey, we just weren't aligned. Anything. It's just been so calming for me to not have all that negative hate towards another individual. But instead, just like, You know what? It just didn't work. We just weren't aligned.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  35:31

As I say, it gives you the gives you the tools of the emotion. Particularly, I would do a lot of work with family businesses, and I think it's really, really key there, because you can get so many emotions and so many interconnections and family stuff. You just use things like the people analyzer, and suddenly it's not about that person, per se, but it's just, yeah, are you aligned? And if not, that's okay. It's actually okay. I'm sure we could talk for hours, because obviously we're both very, very passionate, and of course, we're both entrepreneurs, so we could do, you know, could tell all kinds of stories, but I love the people who are listening in to be able to walk away with some things they can actually do. Because it's all very well sitting here going, no very well sitting here going, Oh, that was lovely. But what can I actually do? So three top tips or tools. What they be from you? Ian

Ian Murray  36:09

Yeah, number one tip, I'm sure every one of your guests has this, but do your level 10s like they are so, so important. Just do them every week, same day, same time, same agenda. Just get it in that consistency helps so much inside of your business, and it allows for just so much better communication path. The other one is getting really fall in love with your VTO. If you don't love your VTO, like, find a new VTO. Like, I don't do not just plug information in. I can't stress that enough. There's so much, there's so much that can be done if everyone is clearly aligned around a vision, and it's super compelling vision, you can have people that are not nearly as talented, but if they align with it and they buy into it, I will take that team every single time.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  37:14

and they'll walk over hot coals to help you achieve it, right? They're going to do whatever works, yep.

Ian Murray  37:20

And then one of my favourite things is LMA. Ah, yeah, I'm going to tell you the reason why for LMA.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  37:28

First of all, you'll need to explain for people who might not know what LMA is. What is LMA in your words? Ian

Ian Murray  37:34

So, leadership plus management equals accountability. So it's just five leadership practices, five management practices, and that's what's going to create accountability. You can't make someone accountable, but if you do these five things, five leadership, five management practices, that's going to lead to better accountability inside the organisation. But here's why it's my favourite tool. I just absolutely love because so often you sit at the leadership team level, or you sit at department level, and you're frustrated with Jim, right? You know, Jim is just, you know, I he's not conforming, not doing this, not doing that. I love LMA. Is that self reflection? Is that? Have I done these five leadership practices? Have I done these five management practices really well, like, really hold the mirror up to yourself and go, have I done it? Because if I haven't, nothing's wrong with Jim. It's me. I'm the issue. And so often, I mean, maybe just so often in life, I'm the issue. You really need to self reflect, and I think you're just such a great tool for self reflection.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  38:42

I actually, whenever I do it with my clients, I actually go through it myself, yeah, and I answer the questions honestly from my own businesses. And let's face it, you know, despite all of the training, all the experience I have, all of the teaching this, day in, day out, there are times when you just realise I'm not doing what I need to be doing to be a great leader or a great manager, not giving them the time, the resources, the energy that they actually need, I failed them. And I think that's uh, Eddie writes a great self reflection to make sure that is it really Jim, or is it actually me?

Ian Murray  39:12

Yeah, especially, does that like, am I keeping my expectations clearly yours and mine? Like, what are your expectations of me? Like, I say that to my teams all the time, like, have you asked your team what they're expecting of you? Because maybe, maybe they think you should be doing something for them. That's that you didn't even know. And therefore, there's, there's friction there because of that, because we're not on the same page with what what each other's expectations are.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  39:43

I was having this conversation with a team yesterday, which I do quarterly with one of my teams, and we were talking about, you know, they haven't really been clear around expectations both ways. And people actually like having boundaries. I always say it's like, the reason we love sports so much is because we know. The rules of the game, we know how to win. We've got a score scoreboard that tells us how we're going. Business is the same. If you haven't got that stuff, how do we know what is expected? And so, you know, making making sure you've got the rules of the game sort of spelled out and people know what to expect makes such a huge difference.

40:16

That's such a great analogy. I'm going to steal that one from you too, please.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  40:19

Yeah, I love it because, I may always say to people like, even if you don't enjoy necessarily playing sport, most people enjoy watching sport. Imagine trying to watch a game of I'll use rugby because I'm a kiwi and where there's but that she's an AFL going on content at the moment. But you know, if you if rugby had no rules, or we didn't know what the rules were, you'd literally just have a whole bunch of men dancing around on a field looking like a whole bunch of ballerinas chasing a ball or something. And again, it wouldn't be fun to watch, because, I mean, you know, how do we win everyone

Ian Murray  40:47

Be perpetually frustrated, which, again, is what happens inside of business, that everyone's perpetually frustrated. So I know it's probably not a normal one to hear LMA, but I just, I absolutely love it. I just got such a great self reflection.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  41:00

It's a good reminder, absolutely. So that is, you know, leadership plus management equals accountability. And the key point from that, and you said it really well there, is that you cannot force accountability. People have to actually take accountability. So you cannot, you know, so people say, How do I hold my team accountable? You don't. You actually become a really great leader and manager so that you can enable them to take accountability. Yeah.

Ian Murray  41:21

And I also just think it's so cool that you don't have to be like, a certain way, you know, you I read, you read these leadership and management books, and like, you have to be hard or or you have to be soft, or you, you know, you have to be overbearing, or you have to have this big personality. You don't need any of it, because if you just go through the checklist, that's it. You just have to care enough about your people that you want them to do well and to actually want to get better at those things. I just think it's so simple, that's true.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  41:49

It brings me to one of my favourites was actually the quarterly conversations. We did a deep dive into this a little while ago, and I think I hadn't realised how powerful they can be when done properly, because that also helps with the communication. It helps with those it does help with understanding you know what the expectations are, but it also highlights some things you sometimes don't know about your team as well. So because we often get caught up in the day to day stuff, without having those conversations about what they love to do and where they'd like to be doing, the delegate and elevate tool, that sort of stuff, you can learn a huge amount from having those quarterly conversations, and that helps you to create the opening, which is one of the leadership abilities of creating the opening, so they can actually step up into their God given talent, unique ability, do more of what they love.

Ian Murray  42:33

I think there's also just, it's that they know that they have that opportunity to sit with you too. Like, it's not like, Well, I wonder if I'm ever going to sit down with Debra sometime. They know, they know when it's coming. They know that it's going to happen every single quarter, the guaranteed time to get one on one with you. Like, where do you get that? I think sometimes you get it in corporates.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  42:56

But it's more about performance management. It's not about having a conversation.

Ian Murray  43:00

Yeah, it's not about it has nothing to do with compensation or performance review. I just think it's just a beautiful thing, and so much can come out of it. I'm going to do one more additional on on things that I'm going to suggest to people not to not do, because, again, writing the book one day on what not to do with EOS. Don't add in another system. So, and the reason why he said this, it that quarterly conversations like that, one on one meeting, we had added in another sip. Because, again, a visionary right? I love Eos, and I'm gonna add another system in, but I had taken a leadership training, and we ended up getting all of our leaders inside the organisation trained with this other organisation, which was in a lot of conflict with with how EOS does leadership. But what ended up happening was we ended up having an L 10 meeting for our sales department. There was a separate weekly meeting for sales training, and then there was a separate meeting, one on one with every single person inside of the organisation for their weekly one on one, and then a checkout meeting at the end of every week. So four meetings every single week for every single member of the team. We were meetings for meetings for meetings. Two things were happening. Nothing was getting done because we were just in meeting. The second issue was, was that all of the all of the issues were discovered in the individual meeting, and what happens was, was that oftentimes it would be conflict between team members or things they just weren't willing to address, and that forced it on the leader at that point in time to try to deal with, oh, I just got this information that you don't want me, this, this other team member to have. It actually forced less team health versus when we got rid of that and forced everybody to flush those issues. In Bl 10, it made them be more healthy to bring the stuff up and to address each other more one on one. So that's my other tidbit. Don't mix the systems.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  45:11

That's a good, very, very good tidbit. Actually, fantastic. Hey, look Ian, and thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. I'm curious your ideal client. What does your ideal client look like for you as an EOS implementer,

Ian Murray  45:22

Yeah, my absolute ideal client. It's less to do the size. So I want to preface, I was already in our target market somewhere between 10 to 250 employees. I had four when I started with Eos, or at least when I started stealth with money. I think fix when, when I add a an implementer, I want somebody who has huge ambition and they want to win, like they want to win way more than I want them to win, which is a really hard thing, because, I mean, I want you to win, but I again, I'm from Canada, so I'm going to say it this way. They want to win the Stanley Cup, they want to go to the Stanley Cup, and they want to do the work that it's going to take to get there. And they're not afraid to make the change, because too often they're like, Yeah, but I don't know if we want to know you need to make the change in order to get where you want to get to going. And if you don't really want to be that kind of company at the 10 year mark, then don't bother doing any of this. And don't bother being with me, because at the end of the day, it's a waste of your money, the waste of my time. It's a waste of your time. I want to work with people who want to win and go to the Stanley Cup.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  46:41

Awesome. I love it. Yeah, and I think you're right, and it isn't about size, it is about that. So ambition, I always say with two types of clients, it's either those that are growing so fast that the wheels are falling off, but they've got that strong vision where they want to be, or they've been going for quite some time, but they've somehow got stuck, but they still know they want to break through that and that both of those are about growth, and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter about the size, it's what they want. Yes, yeah, it is fantastic. Okay, so we're going to put your contact details in the notes here. So if you want to get in contact with Ian, or even ask any more questions about any of the tools that we've talked about, you'll be able to just follow the link in those podcast notes, Ian, it's been a lot of fun. Thank you so much. Really good to get to know you, but also good to share, stories, tips, tools. Really appreciate it. Awesome. Thank you so much. Oh, my absolute pleasure. Hey, thank you. Ian, appreciate it. Thank you.