EOS Meets the Three-Circle Model of Family Business | Sara B. Stern | Ep 222

Sara B. Stern  00:00

In order to run a great business, you have to have conflict, you have to disagree, you have to have debate. In order to get to the right strategy, in the right direction, the perfect person to run the family business might have a completely different last name. What you know you need to do might be painful, it might be scary, but what you're doing now is also painful and scary, and you're just used to it, so go for it and do the thing you know you need to do.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:32

Thanks for joining us on the Better Business, better life podcast. I'm your host, Debra Chantry Taylor, and I'm passionate about helping entrepreneurs lead their ideal lives by creating better businesses, because, as I like to say, life is too bloody short. I'm a certified EOS implementer, an FBA accredited family business advisor and a business owner myself with several business interests, I work with established business owners and their leadership teams to help them live their ideal entrepreneurial life using EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. I use this podcast to share practical tips and tools about how to use EOS in your business and your life to get more of what you want.

Today's show is actually the first in a two part family business special with my special guest, Sarah B Stern. Today's guest has got a name that is a whole sentence. She's an expert EOS implementer, and she's the former director of an international Family Business Centre. Sarah and I share the same passion for helping Second Generation and beyond family businesses to succeed. In part one, we're going to be sharing how to balance family dynamics and business using the EOS tools and the three circle family business model from Harvard. And in part two, we're going to talk about how to overcome succession planning challenges. And in part two, we're going to show how to overcome succession planning challenges using the Harvard three circle family business model and EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. Sarah B. Stern is an expert EOS implementer who focus on multi-generational family businesses.

Welcome back, Sarah. It's great to have you back on the show again.

Sara B. Stern  02:08

It's so fun to be here. Thanks for having me back.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  02:12

Really looking forward to it. So for those of you who don't know, Sarah has been on my podcast a number of times now, she is a fellow EOS implementer over in the US and also a family business advisor, and we share lots of common interest in the work that we do. So I always enjoy talking to you. We're going to talk today, though, about something quite specific, and that is about balancing family dynamics and business. And so first of all, I'm going to ask Sarah to reintroduce herself, tell us a little bit about herself, and then we're going to get stuck into that topic.

Sara B. Stern  02:39

Awesome. I am super thrilled to be back here. I've been an EOS implementer for 10 years. I'm an expert implementer, which is, sounds way cooler than it feels, but it's, it's evidence, I guess, that I've been doing it for a while. Most of my work, most of my clients, I should say, while I have been an EOS implementer, have at least two family members in the business, and that's how I define family business. My favourite situations are when there are two generations in the family business trying to work out how to run the business and own the business and be family together. And then I also work with family business ownership groups as they try to figure out succession to the next generation.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:22

Perfect. Well done on the expert implemented. And that is just phenomenal. 10 years. Wow, that it goes so fast, doesn't it? It really does. I I hit my five years just back in December last year, and it's like, wow, has it really been five years already? Where did the time go? How is that possible? Yeah, I don't know. Because, because we love what we do, I guess. Okay, so if we're talking about, you know, family business dynamics, you've worked with lots and lots of family business over the years. What is the biggest kind of challenges that you see in a family business?

Sara B. Stern  03:51

Yeah, the biggest ones that I see are families that try to use their same concepts around fairness and their same priorities around getting along or having farm or harp I always said farm money. Well, maybe not the thing, but having harmony in their family. They try to use those same ideas inside of the business, and it doesn't work. For example, if you think that fair is equal in your family, which is a, I think a really great way to think about fairness inside of your family. They try to bring that over into the business. I worked with a family business once it was a third generation. And the first generation had said, everybody in the second generation, no matter what their job is, will make the exact same amount of money. And in that generation, they had somebody who was working in the warehouse. They had somebody who was the president and somebody who was the head of sales, and all three of those people were making the same amount of money, and it, even though it looked fair for the family, it was not fair inside of the business. So that's the number one thing. Is getting that idea of fairness mixed up, and then getting that idea of, oh, we have to get along, and everything has to feel nice and smooth and easy. See all the time. It doesn't work in business. In order to run a great business, you have to have conflict, you have to disagree, you have to have debate. In order to get to the right strategy in the right direction.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:12

I mean, it's easy to see how they get to that kind of understanding, though, because, as you said, in a family, there is about everybody being treated equal. But when you're in a business, if you don't look at the roles the people are doing and actually reward them accordingly, it can actually create a whole lot of issues, can't it?

Sara B. Stern  05:27

Oh my gosh, huge, huge issues. Yeah, fights, disagreements, people not talking to each other, pitting children against each other and the next generation. You know, it can be really ugly, and when that doesn't happen, it can be so beautiful, which I know you see, right, these incredible people who run wonderful businesses and also love each other and have a tendency to love their team and their customers and their vendors and create these incredible places to work.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:55

So how do they go about? How does a family business go about establishing what is fair in a business in terms of roles.

Sara B. Stern  06:06

I like to talk about this concept of the 100% healthy family business, which, of course, will never happen. It's impossible. But just as a concept to put out there for family businesses to strive toward. And when I think about fairness, well, my favourite tool is to think about the Harvard's three circle model of family business, right? There's one circle is the family. One is the business, and the third is ownership. And what I think the most healthy family businesses do is define fair in each of those circles. So usually, fair is equal in the family. In my mind, what fair is in the business, the healthiest model would be, you get paid market rate, the appropriate amount of money for the job that you're doing. And also, by the way, it has to be a job that's needed.

So if you have a next generation family member who's a surgeon, but your family business makes picnic tables, you probably don't need a surgeon, so you can't pay them surge in wages in a company that doesn't need a surgeon, right? So there has to be a real job, and then you get paid what you would get paid if you work somewhere else, and then with ownership. I don't think there's a specific rule, like, here's the perfect idea, fair. Other than this, owners must identify what they believe is fair on ownership. And it might be that you have to buy the business, or you're gifted the business, or you have to work there in order to have the right to buy it, or you have to be a certain age in order to have the right to be gifted it, something like that, and then following that same rule consistently, no matter who is the next person, so not one set of rules for these people and another set for a different set member or another set of the family.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  07:51

So this whole idea of being paid market rate something that I absolutely advocate with my clients, and we say, you know, have a look at a number of factors to establish what that market rate will be because the size of the business, how complicated it is, what its turnover is, all of those you know, being a CEO in one business or president in one business can be completely different to being another business. So go out there, establish what that market rate is, and then reward people based on their actual responsibilities and the amount of risks they take, and that sort of thing. But I suppose, from a family perspective, how do you decide who gets what role?

Sara B. Stern  08:23

Yeah, oh my gosh. So I like to when asked this question, I love to talk about the royal family. Unfortunately, a lot of people model their decision making around what the royal family does, right? The oldest son is now the boss or the king. And I think that's the exact opposite method. So luckily, you and I both have EOS as a tool, and I lean heavily on the idea of for picking who, who is in the seat in the next generation around what is the seat that is needed for the business, and then who gets it and who wants it and who has the capacity. And it's not three different people. It's one person who gets it, who wants it, and has the capacity. And what is so important to me is especially for that integrator role and that visionary role that does not have to be a family member. The perfect person to run the family business might have a completely different last name, and if you don't have a family member who can do it, please don't make them do it, is what I like to say.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  09:22

Yeah, I think that's really important. I think sometimes we feel like we are obliged to do that, but sometimes it's not that. It was interesting. I was working with a family business a number of years ago now, and they were very traditional in terms of the hierarchy and elders, and who was, you know, respected, and so the elder was that was given the visionary role. And, you know, in the beginning, it was like, Are you sure? It's like, yeah, you know, I definitely want, and I've over time, he actually realised it wasn't a role that he wanted to be doing. What he really, really loved doing was actually research and development and new products, but not but in a very technical sense, as opposed to in that great big picture. A sense. And so after a while, he sort of said, You know what, I don't GW to this role. I actually would much rather be doing this. And it was a real eye opener for them, because in the past, it always been the elder took the visionary role. Probably the oldest son took the integrator role. And that's just the way that it works. So it was beautiful for them to understand that you can actually, you develop the business into what the business actually wants, and then you find the right people to do what shouldn't say wants what the business needs, and then you find the right people to take those seats.

Sara B. Stern  10:29

Oh my gosh. I love hearing stories of people who come to that conclusion, and they break the trend of how their family has run for a generation or two or three. I like I don't have any research to support what I'm about to say outside of what my own eyes have seen. I think there's a higher percentage of people in the family business world who are suffering with addiction, and I think one of the reasons for that is that sense of obligation and trying to force themselves to do work that they're not uniquely skilled for and it just makes life hard, and then they go seeking other things to live through their life, versus saying, Here's what this business needs, let's make sure that it has what it needs, that that that is actually truly what's best for the family.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  11:16

And that is, of course, the EOS accountability chart makes that stuff really easy, because it takes all the emotion out of it, and says, Hey, let's take a look at this business, almost like with a blank piece of paper, and say, if we are building this from the ground up, now, what would be the main functions? What would we hold those functions accountable for? And then, you know, obviously, got the integrated and the visionary as well. And only once we've got that nails do we actually then say, right, do we have the right people to actually fit those roles? And I think for a family business, I mean, it's great in any business, but I think for a family but I think for a family business, particularly, it's suddenly taking away the hierarchy, the history, the emotion, it's more about this is what the role requires. Do you actually look at that and do you go, that is me. That is what I want to do. I get that. I really want to do that. I've got the capacity. Or you look at and go, Oh, you know what? Let's stop running me at all.

Sara B. Stern  12:01

Yeah. Are you looking at that and saying, Okay, I'll do it if I have to, or I'll do it if you want me to, versus, I can't wait to do that, or I have ideas about that, or I'm excited about that. I like to say to people, if your accountability chart looks suspicious, suspiciously like your family tree, there's a problem, you know, like they shouldn't look the same. It should maybe once, ever, that's how it worked. But they really shouldn't be a similar looking chart. The other thing is, I think a lot of family businesses, even inside of EOS and even inside of the accountability chart, will think, Well, the future visionary has to, you know, do some sales, and they have to work in finance, and they have to learn a little bit about HR, and then they have to run operations, and then they can be the integrator, and then they can be the visionary. And while that is logical, that's not the way the accountability chart's supposed to work, I've never seen a uniquely skilled visionary who had the best training ever in the integrator seat. The integrator seat is not where you learn to be a great visionary. The operation seat might be a great place to learn to be an integrator, but it isn't this step ladder that you have to walk up to be a visionary. And that's an accident people make, even with the amazing tool that you and I get to put in front of them.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  13:24

And I think it's also really interesting, because often people see the visionary as being, yes, a little bit. So it's a hierarchical right? They see it as being the top of the tree. Therefore it is, it is the most important role, but it, but it isn't just a different role. I mean, it's a different role in terms of the skill sets required and in terms of what we need from that person. And as you said, it doesn't have to be a family member.

Sara B. Stern  13:42

Right. I mean, what are the chances that the same family is going to have that big ideas, big relationship, person in every generation? It just doesn't happen. I got to talk at the EOS conference about the owner's box, and that's a really important box that is invisible on the accountability chart, usually, but that goes up above the visionary. And anybody who's an owner needs to be in that box, whether or not you know, let's say there's a well, oh my gosh, this is my favourite. One of my favourite. I have so many. I guess all of my family business stories are my favourite. So here's another of my favourites. There was a third-generation family business owner that I knew, and he'd been told since he was a little boy, he was the oldest grandson you're going to run the family business someday. What he really loved was taking care of the yard and the trees and the flowers. And he had a huge passion for what is it, landscaping and native plants and flowers and stuff. That's what he wanted to do with his life. But they said, Oh no to you're going to run the business. You're going to run the family business. He got into that seat. The business started tanking. His health went away. His mental health went away. They and they owned a tonne of property. There actually was a full time job that could exist in. The family business of taking care of the property and the land and all of that, they finally realised. Let him go do the thing that he really loves to do. I hired someone from outside. The business flourished. He flourished. The family flourished. It was a game changer, but it was all about get the person in the right seat. He still, of course, attends the owners meetings. He is an owner. He's the oldest cousin. He's the most looked up to cousin. He must be there in the owner's seat. He didn't have to run the day to day.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  15:30

Yeah, I think that's a really valid point. I had a similar situation with a family business that actually grows vegetables and sells into retail stores down the South Island. And there's three sons working in the business, and one of them, he is just hangs on. He loves getting dirty. He loves fixing machinery. He loves fixing tractors, all that kind of stuff. And so, you know, he's in a role where he gets to fix the tractors, he gets to do all the maintenance. He absolutely loves it. And, you know, that's, that's where he's in his element. And it's not like, you know, not everybody needs to be leading the business, or, you know, being in charge. And the other, the other, one of the other sons is very much a visionary, um, absolutely terrible at the integration work. And so we were able to find an external integrator and bring that external integrator in, and it's freed him up to do what he again, what he absolutely loves. And I think when you're doing what you love all the time, then that's when the value really gets added to the business. And as you said, your personal life becomes better as well, because you're not stressed, you're not worried.

Sara B. Stern  16:27

So many people like to say, you know, we're a family first business, and because we're a family first our two kids run it. Oh my gosh, no, if you're a family first business, have really qualified people run the business, make tonnes of money and share it with the family. You know, it's funny, there's this amazing correlation between making lots of money and being happy in the family. I've noticed. You've probably noticed that too, and there's this huge correlation between doing work you love and being happy. So get people doing work they love. Get great people to run the business, cash, big checks. Do work you love and enjoy your family time.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  17:04

Okay, so let's imagine we've got a family business where, let's say I've gone to second generation, and there isn't somebody who's naturally suited to the visual, the integrator role, and we've brought somebody in externally, who's going to do that. Tell me a bit more about the owners boxes you see, and what role that plays, and how does it interact with the family business.

Sara B. Stern  17:21

I think the owner's box is huge. The three-circle model from Harvard puts the owner's box, or puts the owner's circle at the top. You know, I think it play it. It's the least thought about circle, and in my opinion, the most important. I think the job of the owner's box is to think about risk for the family and risk for the business, and also opportunity for the family and opportunity for the business. And sometimes the highest risk opportunity for the business is the or the highest risk for the business is the highest opportunity for the family. For example, saying, we'll make the, you know, we'll make our kids, the people who run the business, because they'll make lots of money doing that, right? That'll be great, you know. But if they're not qualified, then they're really increasing the risk for the business. The other way I think about the owner's box is, if you think, at least in the US this, they don't have these on playgrounds so much, seesaws, do? They call them seesaws. They're, yeah, okay, yeah. Now, if you think about there's that, that balancing point, and then the seesaw going back and forth. To me, if you think of one side of the seesaw as the family and the other is the business, the owner's box that figures out, how do we balance those two? How can we break the tie, if you will, between the needs of the family and the needs of the business? And that's really big decisions, like, should we even own it anymore? You know, it might be in the next generation that there's nobody who wants to run it, and nobody cares about it. They're not interested in it. Maybe the best thing to do is to sell it. Alternatively, the best thing to do might be hire someone to run it really well, learn how to be great owners and do that be great owners?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  19:03

It's interesting, because I always have this conversation with my family businesses about, what do they really want? Because you don't actually have to sell the business to be able to live off it. There's a great family business over here that has got a lot of assets and a huge family business into the sixth or seventh generation now. And you know, the owners of that business, they make enough from the dividends to actually live very well off. They don't actually get involved in the running of the business in any way, shape or form, and that's okay. You can be a great owner of a family business.

Sara B. Stern  19:29

I love that so much. I'm I feel like if I if there was a building I could stand on and screen that message all day long, and people would hear me, I would do it. So I love that example. And it's not easy. It's not easy to be owners together, but it's way easier to be owners together than when you have people who are not competent also running the business. Great owners can make decisions about, How much money do we want from this? How much money are we willing to put into it? What are we wanting from it? What. Are we willing to invest because we want our people to be the top paid people in our industry? Or maybe we don't, right, they get to make huge decisions like that and really stand arm in arm in supporting the leadership team that is running the business that might or might not have their family name on it. Oh, it can be a beautiful partnership for people. I love that. I love that.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  20:21

And I think you talk about this a lot in your book, in terms of, you know, being really clear about what each of those three circles represents, how often they meet, who's the head of the circle, what their responsibilities are, what they're trying to achieve. And I think, yeah, I think it really opened my eyes up when I first read the book, in terms of, it's just because it's a family business, you don't actually have to work in it. You know, it's, really can be that you can be a, you can learn to be a great owner of a family business, rather than actually want to work in it. I am interested, though, so, you know, it's, we've got this owner's box, and they're making the bigger decisions. You've got the vision with the integrated got the roles all set up. We've now, you know, put the right people in the right seats. We know that the people are doing what they love, that they're great at it. And they're adding real value. We know that they share our core values. We're still going to get conflict, though, right? Because conflict is healthy. I think it's funny that people are always nervous about conflict, but if you think about Patrick Lencioni pyramid, trust pyramid, you know you actually have to have healthy conflict to get things like trust and commitment and results. So what happens when you get conflict in a family business between, let's say, between siblings or between a father and a daughter.

Sara B. Stern  21:28

Yeah. Oh my gosh. You I just I love how well you know this topic because you're so passionate about it, it just makes you ask such good questions, such thoughtful questions. Yeah, it is inevitable, and what you said is so true. People often think the goal, for some reason, is to not have conflict. I you know, the goal is to have lots of it and to have it be good conflict. Healthy conflict, right? Healthy, healthy conflict, which doesn't always look like yelling. I mean, of course, we know this language from Patrick Lencioni of conflict is not, I mean, it's typically not yelling, it's debate, it's discussion. It's saying what you really think. But people often think conflict means yelling, hurt feelings, people being mad at each other. Anyway, here's the thing that I think is the most helpful is again, going back to that three-circle   model, is making sure that the conflict is happening in the right circle. So for example, I know the sad story of a family business.

The second generation dad who was leading a bank, died very unexpectedly, and the mom and their children, his children were not really prepared to own the bank, and they were trying to figure out what to do, and they were thinking, well, we have to put someone in to be the president of the bank. And so they were debating who it should be, and one sister was saying, No, you can't do it. I'm not going to agree to that. You cannot own, you cannot run the bank. And finally, everybody said, why? And she said, Because you crashed my bike when I was seven. It's funny and it's sad, and it's the perfect example of getting your family stuff accidentally into the owner's box. This was an owner's conversation. So for me, the a great way to get ahead of conflict like that is to make sure we're clear we are owners talking about ownership things with owners. We're not a family talking about ownership stuff with each other, even though, yes, you do have family relationships, but, or we're in the family and we're talking about family stuff, or here we are in the business, but we're colleagues in the business, even though we also happen to be brothers or sisters or dad or daughter.

Sara B. Stern  23:35

Just being really clear about that, I like to ask my family business clients to think of three tables when they think of those three circles. And the business table is, you know, the conference room table, or the session room table. The family table is the kitchen table or the dining room table, and the owners table is the boardroom. And now in a lot of family businesses, that's the exact same physical table. So it's then, it's important to say, Okay, we're having a business meeting. We're talking about business things, and we are colleagues here at this business, you know, in this business meeting, or when they're with you in a session, right here, we are talking about the business. We're not owners and we're not family members. Of course, you are owners and you are family members. But the point here is we are colleague, put that hat on and stick with that hat. I have this great couple that I worked with. She's the visionary. Husband was the integrator, and they decided to create this code so they were clear, are we husband and wife right now, or are we visionary and integrator? Or are we co-owners? They didn't, they didn't worry about the ownership one much day to day, but their code was, if she walked into his office and shut the door or vice versa, they were husband and wife. If they walked into each other's office and the door was open, they were colleagues, and it was just this little trick to remind them, you know, who's talking to who I worked with, a father and a daughter once, and their. Code was if they if she had a nickname that he would call her, or she would call him dad. If it was a family question, if it was a business question, they called each other, you know, no nickname, no dad. You know, just their first name. Yeah, just a name a little it's a great idea, tool that they use to remind themselves who was talking to.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  25:19

Yeah, it is funny. I do with a lot of husband and wife teams who, you know, sometimes naturally take the visual integral, because that's exactly what they're doing. But what I loved about the concept of visual integrate, when I first came across it was it. It gave married couples suddenly an insight into why they were. Had a natural tension in the business, and it wasn't anything to do with husband and wife. It was because and because, actually they were being a visionary in terms of the way they approach things, or being an integrated way in terms of the way they approach things. And so suddenly it was like a revelation for them, where they could actually go it's not husband being a dick, it's actually husband being a visionary, and that's what visionaries do. And so it's just, he's just being a visionary, and that's okay. And then, you know, the husband would kind of say, oh, it's not my wife being a pain in the ass. It's like, Actually, she's just being an integrator. That's what an integrator does. And it's wonderful to kind of have that distinction and be able to kind of go, Look, I'm wearing my business hat now. I'm a visionary. That's what I'm doing, rather than I'm your husband.

Sara B. Stern  26:14

And I love that so much. I like to call the visionary, the CE-Yes, and the integrator, the CE-No. And I stole that from somebody I worked with a long time ago. But it's the same thing, right? It's not the like the mom who spoils the kid and the dad who disciplines them, although that might be the case at home in the business, it's really helpful to have the CE-Yes, and the CE-No.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  26:38

Yeah, and that natural tension that exists between them actually creates magic. Yes, yes. Okay, so I do know from my experience, that in certain family businesses there are some conversations that go on behind the scenes that really probably shouldn't be had behind the scenes. And I do know also that some family business advisors, and this is not a negative, but they feel like they have to go and talk to everybody individually and kind of hear what that person's doing. I always worry that that creates a space where there's a chance to have what we would call sidebar conversations and you're not actually dealing with the issue. How do you recommend if there's an issue going on and you know that conversation is going on behind the scenes. How do you recommend dealing with it?

Sara B. Stern  27:22

Yeah, meaning, if that conversation is happening between them or with another advisor.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  27:28

Well, I think it could happen with both. I mean, sometimes, I mean, okay, I'm gonna be really honest. I've seen with a business recently, okay, where we all got together in a room, we talked about certain things, and then what happened was the daughter went away and had a word in the mums here, and then, and then the mum rang me and sort of said, Oh yeah, this is what's going on. And my immediate thing was, like, we need to get back in a room together. We need to have this conversation openly with the whole team, because otherwise, what we're actually encouraging is these sidebar conversations. And I'm sure there's more going on as well, which means that you're undermining each other and you're not actually having the conversation to be had. But I was just wondering how you would approach that, if you can see that going on.

Sara B. Stern  28:04

I mean the same way you just said it is, we have to get in the room and talk about this together. I got this wonderful phrase from one of our fellow EOS implementers, John La Fauci, and he may have taken it from someone else, but I give him credit. He said, I want you talking to each other and not about each other. That great. Oh, I just love that. And so that's been my new go to thing is you must be talking to each other and not about each other. And if daughter's talking to mom and then mom's talking to me, you're not nobody's talking to each other and to me, the most destructive thing I could do is spend lots of time allowing them to talk to me, which means talking about each other instead of to each other. There's one small exception to that is if there's major, like a major mental health issue where the other person is not capable of talking, then I guess it makes sense to talk about them and not to them, but then I'm not the right person to talk to, you know, then they need somebody who's really skilled to help them with that. And in most situations, that is not the case, someone might be hard to talk to or get crabby easily or not understand, but we can work through that. Let's get in the room and talk to each other.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  29:25

I love that. I've just written that down, so I want you to sort of talking to each other, not about each other, isn't it great? Yeah, I do. I love it. Yeah, that's fantastic. Okay, cool. So before we finish up on this topic, I always ask for, you know, a couple of tips and tools that people can take away, that they can start thinking about and hopefully put into action immediately in their business. So in their business. So for any family business owners listening in, who are talking about, you know, getting clarity in those roles, resolving conflicts, having those professional boundaries, what would be your three top tips or tools Sarah?

Sara B. Stern  29:53

Oh my Gosh. Okay. I came prepared. Let me get them. I know. The first one was, oh my gosh. Okay. You. Here's my first one. I would love to remind people that if they sit quietly for a moment or a few moments, they probably know what they need to do. They probably know it and with that, I would say what you know you need to do might be painful. It might be scary, but what you're doing now is also painful and scary, and you're just used to it. So go for it and do the thing you know you need to do. That would be my first one. My second one is thinking about those three circles. Share those three circles, and you can google three circle model of family business. You can find it on my website. I bet it's on your website. The three circles, the family and the business and the ownership. Draw it for your fellow family members, your fellow owners, and make an agreement. Let's when we're talking about business stuff, let's be colleagues when we're talking about ownership stuff, let's be owners together, and then let's talk about family stuff in the family circle. That's my second one, and kind of connected to those two. The number it's inevitable you're going to accidentally show up in a business meeting and a family thing will come up, or you'll be in an owners meeting and a business thing will come up. The number one way, I think, to not accidentally go off on a tangent and have an accidental owners meeting at the business meeting is to just take out a piece of paper and start the agenda for your next meeting. So you know, if you're wanting to say to your brother, you can't be the president of the bank because you crash my bike. Well, take out a piece of paper and write, crash my bike. And that's the first topic for the next family meeting. We need to finish this owner is meeting. Is he qualified to run the bank? If he is, let's say yes.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  31:45

Yeah. I like it. Okay. So just to repeat that, so if you, if you've got an issue that you need to think about, sit quietly for a moment. You probably know what you need to do. And when you know what you need to do, have the courage, I guess, to actually do the right thing. The three-circle model is make sure that you share it, you draw it, and you make an agreement about what each of those circles stands for. And then, if you're in a meeting and you're going off down a tangent in terms of moving into a different circle, just grab a piece of paper, write it down, put it on the agenda. That becomes one of the first topics for your next family ownership, whatever the meeting is that you've got there. Beautiful, okay, great. Hey. Thank you so much. That is really awesome. I know that you've got a couple of books. I give them extensively to my clients, because what I love about your books is they're not they're not great, big text heavy books. They're actually practical, pragmatic things that really get the family thinking about what's going on and get them to some exercise will actually help them. So just share those two books with me. The titles, I know them roughly, but probably get them wrong.

Sara B. Stern  32:43

Thank you for giving them out. That, of course, makes me feel amazing, and I did write them. I jokingly call them colouring books for adults, because they're more about what you write in them than what you read in them. So although there aren't any, well, there are a few pictures you could colour if you want. Anyway, the first one is for owners of family businesses, and it's called start here. The subtitle is a guide for family business succession. But what I've found is even family businesses who aren't within 10 years of succession are getting value out of that book. The second book is called married to the family business, and it's a handbook for people who are married to family business owners, so that mom or dad who doesn't work in the business, who wants to kind of understand that world that their kids and their spouse are in.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:27

I can highly recommend both books. That's what I give them out to all of my clients. They are just beautiful in terms of really getting you to think, and it just gives you something to actually move away with so you can actually be practical about it right from day one, which is fantastic. Hey, Sarah, thank you so much for your time. I look forward to catch up with you again soon.

Sara B. Stern  33:43

This is really fun to hang out with you. Thanks for having me.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:46

Thank you.