Cracking the Code: Mastering EOS for Business Excellence | Howard Mann | Ep 122

Howard Mann  00:00

If you really feel good about the team that you’re you’re in the battle with, because you’re going to be in battles, you’re going to go through hard times, you’re going to have some hits. And to have that team around you that you feel incredible about, I mean, I had a team with my freight company, we had 150 people, but there was a good 15 or 20 people that were my friends that were I mean, I might have been their boss, but they’re their friends to this day. And we went through all kinds of stuff with each other. But the fact that we were all in it together, made it more fun to run.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:36

Hello and welcome to another episode of Better Business Better Life. I’m your host, Debra Chantry-Taylor. And today, I am joined by another one of my US colleagues, this time from New York City. His name is Howard man. And the reason I’ve invited him on the show is that he believes that we have to have more fun in doing business. And that’s a philosophy I very much share myself. And I’m really looking forward to exploring that with him. So Howard, he’s a CEO. He’s a coach, he’s also an us implementer. Howard, welcome to the show.

Howard Mann  01:02

Great to be here.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  01:03

Yeah, it’s great to have you here. So we’ve just been having a chat, as I always do before these podcasts and getting the level of get to know you session. And you’ve got quite an interesting background, because you’ve done the hard stuff, you’ve been a business owner and gone through the hard times, you know what it’s like, and now you’re working with business owners to actually help them through their hard times. Tell us a little about your philosophies on business and how you got to where you are today.

Howard Mann  01:28

All right, I got through it, I guess my lessons learned the hard way. So I in the in the first half of my career, I own part of a medium sized freight international freight logistics company, I always like to tell people, we were a travel agents for cargo, it’s the best way to explain it. And that business went through some hard times in the late 90s. And I spent four very lonely, stressful, worry filled years, running around the country and around the globe, trying to turn the business around and got maybe a 15 year education in four years five and society and finally got the business to a place where we could sell it in January of 2000. But in those four years, I the simplest way to say it is that I lost my smile. And after we sold the business and I was sort of going through it and phase of trying to figure out what was the point of all of that. I thought, well, if I could help other business owners never have to go through what I went through, then that would be that would make those years worth it. And it would be worthy work. And that started a process of writing some of the lessons that I learned what I wish I had told myself back then giving my younger self advice. And figuring out that it really wasn’t all of the innovation and the fancy talk and all of these things that mattered but it was getting the basics right. And one of the core basics was it doesn’t, business doesn’t have to be so hard. And if you can simplify the business, if you can do fewer things instead of more things, if you can just change this narrative that owning a business is supposed to be this carrying huge boulder up a hill. And then some day you will have some incredible windfall moment, or you sell the business or some credible thing will happen. People waste decades believing that instead of just turning around and saying I don’t care that Instagram sold for a billion dollars after a year or whatever it is, that is the incredible story of the day and in business news, to just say this is my business. It needs to be fulfilling to my life. And it needs to do that today. And if next year in 10 years and 20 years, and to get some clarity around what what is fulfilling, what am I just growing for the sake of growth Do I have a Groundhog’s Day every year where I finished the year I look at the USA. We made it through December 31. And next year, I’m going to do the same thing all over again. But I’m going to try to do it with an extra 10% on top. And that becomes incredibly unfulfilling. And enough years go by I always think of that story of the boiling frog that enough years go by that you just think that’s what business is. It’s this endless grinding through mud, then someday it’s going to be fun. And I think that’s broken. I think it’s broken because entrepreneurs, the word entrepreneurs become the sort of incredible startup investing VC funded of that flame out famously or go to the moon. And to me entrepreneurship is somebody who owns a business that provides a life to themselves and provides a life to all the people that care about that business.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:01

And it supports the community. It’s part of a much, much bigger environment, isn’t it? Why ecosystem? I’m with you. I think the word entrepreneurs it massively misused. And I think if you if you look at some other really large kind of privately owned businesses, that’s entrepreneurialism, that’s where you’re taking something and, you know, meeting people’s needs, but also supporting a wider community.

Howard Mann  05:24

You’re just sorry, you reminded me of there’s this amazing organization that’s called endeavor that, that you just reminded me of that. That its whole premise. So it’s a fund but it funds, entrepreneur owned businesses around the world for the sole focus of if we can infuse capital into these already successful businesses, then they will hire more people. And we will make an impact on the economy through those businesses around the world. As opposed to, you know, taking a flyer on a piece of software, there’s like this, this company already employs 300 people, but if we gave them capital, they can employ 600 or 1000 people and make an impact in different economies around the world. That always resonated with me when I met somebody from that organization years ago that that’s entrepreneurship to me. Yeah,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  06:16

Yeah, I’m completely on board with that as well, like I believe, I think we’re on the same page in terms of I think that actually, they’re the ones that can really make the big difference. Yeah, some startups will make it and guess I’ll make lots of money. But a lot of it is just just playing in my mind.

Howard Mann  06:32

Well, I had a conversation with a VC once I remember as, as in my coaching, had on AI and doing turnaround consulting for 20 years, that that I went to one of the VCs and I said, you know, maybe I could work with some of the companies in your portfolio that are sort of on the fence of fee of failing or not failing, and make them and then you’d have thought this was such a genius sales idea, it turned out it was just so wrong. But But I thought that by telling them that maybe I can help. You can have more hits, you can have more companies that do well. And three different ones told me, We don’t care. We hope that out of the 10 companies we invest in that three are successful, if we have a 30%, batting average, some of the one, one or two or three of those will give our return to our investors. And in turn, those investors will support our next fund. Yeah. And I remember hanging up the phone thinking, they’re not in the business of business, no matter what the VC say, they’re not in the business of making sure that businesses succeed. They’re in the business of returning or getting a return for their investors that they promised them so that they investigate. And maybe naive of me to think that they I’m sure that there are some that really care about finding the next big thing. But ultimately, they’re in the business of money.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  07:56

And the business of gambling in some respects to right. That’s all about sort of hedging your bets and making sure that you do provide the return. But you’re quite happy to go hey, if seven fall over. So be it as long as we get through that work. And maybe one that’s really great. We’ll be fine. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah, we’re not gonna talk about that stuff. Because we really are passionate, I know you and I both passionate about actually helping, you know, strong, privately owned businesses get better, and also create better lives. Because you know, your whole fun to run thing. That’s a bit that kind of stuck with me. It’s like, business life is too short. business should be fun, you should be loving what you do, you should be working with people that you love, you should be having time to spend time with your family and the other passions that you have. And all too often business owners, they go in with all those intentions in mind, and then suddenly find themselves stuck in a role that they don’t particularly like they’ve got people around, and they’re not always enjoying their company, and their entire life is consumed by business, and it is no longer fun. So tell us a bit about you. You know, you’ve written a couple of books. Now you’ve got the fun to run book, you’ve got the other book, which was your second book,

Howard Mann  09:01

Fewer better feel better. That’s

Debra Chantry-Taylor  09:02

Right. So tell us a little bit about that.

Howard Mann  09:05

Well, the first book was called your business Brickyard, and the subtitle was getting back to basics to make your business more fun to run. And the idea around that was, as I mentioned earlier, is that the that I think a lot of people want to put the icing all over the cake, to use that analogy. But what matters is that the cake still has to taste good. So the book is a set of 12 very basic principles, that if it’s meant to be a very short read, to just remind you of the basics that get lost along the way, when you’re constantly looking at other people’s cool stuff, and you’re looking for the next shiny object, that it’s the basics of business that that are timeless that never go out of style, right? I mean, EOS has simple basic tools, right? It’s the same thing. It’s having a purpose that matters for your business or as EOS calls a vision. It’s One of the rules is get paid fast, but pay fast but get paid faster. Another one is, is defining your business by by not what you say yes to but what you say no to. It’s, it’s these simple, timeless ideas that will always work, as opposed to, everybody likes to focus on the shiny new branding or the website. And that all of those things ultimately make you feel that you’re constantly keeping up with the Joneses. And that’s not fulfilling in real life, it’s not going to be fulfilling in a business life. And the second book is, is sort of a deeper dive into what I call business life lessons, which I wrote them 12 years apart. So it’s, it’s maybe a mature, more mature book about this idea that, that we all have this sort of relentless pursuit of more that we want more just for the sake of having more, we don’t even know why we want to grow our businesses, but we know we have to grow our businesses. And it’s sort of a warning to put your pride away. And to just decide what is enough for you what is enough for the kind of business that you feel good about running, not everybody wants to run a 10,000 person business or even 1000 person business, some people like a business, they built an agency where they’re really have a close knit healthy group of 20 people, and they’re happy. And that’s okay. Not everybody has to build the 5000 person agency. And but at the same time, you could have a 10 person or a 20 person agency, but you really do yearn for having a 500 person agency that would make your mark, that’s your dent in the universe. And so figuring out what that is, and that not, and that you don’t get there, from just trying to do more and more of what everybody else in your industry is doing. But the idea of this mantra of fewer better, which is I’m going to do fewer things, and I’m going to do them better than anybody else. And that that is the way to get more fulfillment from your business and actually to make your business. unbeatable.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  12:08

Yeah. Love the concept. Okay. So I’m really intrigued. You know, you’re obviously a successful business person, you turn your business around, you sold it, you’ve you’ve been involved with many other businesses as well. Why did you choose to become an EOS implementer?

Howard Mann  12:23

Well, I I, I have been coaching businesses for 20 years now business owners, entrepreneurs. And I felt that I would get them to a place where they had really a lot of clarity around what they wanted from their business, what made their business unique, the part of the business that was incredibly fulfilling for them. And I didn’t feel that I had a really solid process of getting their company all lined up behind them so that they could make that vision reality. And the truth is, is that as I can talk to an entrepreneur and a business owner, and I can help help them to a point, but if they own a business, and that business is going to be responsible for what they want to accomplish in the world, they have to get their company lined up around it. And they have to get everybody in the company, to buy into that vision to feel good about it. And I love that EOS is has such a great focus on making a healthy work environment, right, you’re not going to your business has never gone to as much as I’ll say, I want business to be fun to run, there are days that are going to really be lousy, no matter what you do. Yeah, suck is is the right word. And, and what makes that a little better is that if you really feel good about the team that you’re you’re in the battle with, because you’re going to be in battles, you’re going to go through hard times, you’re going to have some hits. And to have that team around you that you feel incredible about. I mean, I had a team with my freight company, we had 150 people, but there was a good 15 or 20 people that were my friends that were I mean, I might have been their boss, but they’re their friends to this day. And we went through all kinds of stuff with each other. But the fact that we were all in it together, made it more fun to run. Yes, was incredibly compelling to me, because it is simple, basic tools that will never go out of style, that it isn’t reliant on fancy software and all kinds of complex stuff. And it is the things that that that most businesses don’t use. In order to get to where they want to get to they get frustrated by hitting. Remember when I did Strategic Coach that Dan Sullivan talks about the ceiling of complexity that every business evolves to some sort of a ceiling, where they’re just not structured and not capable of going to where they want to go and then the frustration kicks in. And so EOS became this incredible compliment to Michael hoping to be able to help a business owner get to that level of clarity. And then say, Great, now we need a way to get every single person in your company rowing in that same direction and in a healthy environment for you to get where you want to go. So it’s a bit of a one two punch for me.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  15:18

And I think it’s kind of part of the reason I sort of fell in love with it, too. I’m a same, I’ve actually been running business for a long time. I’ve been coaching for many, many, many years. But it was always with the business owner. And even if you did bring the team together before a team kind of strategy building day, you do all those sort of wonderful, I want to call it rah rah, but it felt a bit rah rah, and we all kind of left the room going, Yeah, this is really great. And then you go back into the business, and of course, nothing had changed, which means all of that wonderful stuff that you did never got implemented. So when I saw the for the, for the first time that the EOS proven process, and when you made the first day, we don’t get to do original stuff, we actually get to do you know, really practical tools. This is fantastic. I love it. And so the fact that you are with a whole leadership team, rather than just the owner, and you really are, you know, focused on sharing that vision, getting that discipline accountability and, and working together for the greater good, I think is just, it’s what sold me

Howard Mann  16:07

in the end. And this is the the focus on Team health. I mean, it’s this idea. You know, I love the line that comes up a lot in the Eos community about that, that EOS is a system for harnessing human energy, because at its core, that is a business. Yeah, it is a whole bunch of people. I mean, in a lot of the things that I write and speak about are a constantly make this analogy that businesses have a personality because people have a personality and businesses are made up of people. So all of the ills and the good and the bad about human beings exist in a business people like to make business be this cold machine that just runs but ultimately, it is filled with people who have good days and bad days who need to learn and grow and communicate with each other and work towards a common goal. And they have ups and they have downs and they have a personality and uncovering that and realizing that and not thinking that it’s just this cold machine is a huge unlock for for businesses to embrace.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  17:11

Yeah. So I’m curious, do you have a favorite EOS tool?

Howard Mann  17:17

I really love the Wii to the vision, the vision traction organizer, because I think that there is as simple as it is right? Just two pieces of paper with a questions on them. That just the act of getting somebody to take the step out of their business for a day and work through? Where do they want their business to be in 10 years? Where do they want their business to be in three years in one year? And what do you have to do in the next 90 days to be a quarter of the way to that one year? What are your core values I one business after the other? Maybe they had it in the beginning? But they haven’t really identified? What are we about? What do we care about here? How do we articulate it in a way that respects the people that are here but also attracts incredible talent? What makes our business unique? And and what happens when somebody comes away with having all of that information that was bouncing around in their head, maybe scribbled down in notebooks in 15 different places, their marketing, he told one thing, their PR firm told them another thing, to have everything just on this simple, two page pieces of paper. There’s so much clarity and power that comes out of that, just to distill all of those different ideas and lots of things you probably haven’t asked yourself and talked about in years down to two pieces of paper sets right there for everybody to read.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  18:42

And I think it’s really fascinating, you must see this, when you’re running your sort of vision building days, as well as sometimes the owners are a bit nervous that you know, will the rest of the team kind of share what their 10 year target is all about. And I had a team the other day and it was just like the I went, we went around the room, we always ask them to think individually what it might be and then bring it together and see what what comes out of it. And they were all just absolutely kind of spot on in terms of what they wanted. And so the energy in that room, when they realized that they were really, really clear, but being able to articulate it, because they they all had that vision that 10 year target in their brain, but nobody is actually written down anywhere. And when you put it into writing, and you actually I’ve got my I’m looking at my notes, I’ve got a laminated version sitting over there, you know, when you actually have that, and you can just look at it and go, Yeah, that’s it. And you know that and even down to the core values, they had core values, without a doubt, you know, we don’t, we don’t we’re not trying to do a tick box is exercise to force you to have some core values. They already had them. But the fact that we can actually pull them out and then really clearly articulate them and then commit them to a piece of paper so that everybody knows what they are. And I don’t know if there’s just a magic that happens in that in that session.

Howard Mann  19:46

There is there I’ve just had a session with a client earlier this week. And the owner just as you said he was terribly worried that he was going to articulate this vision and that would that freak everybody out with they get nervous. And one of the leadership teams said, You know what? We’ve been begging you to tell us, just where are we going? Like, what where are we going? And I always am reminded of, you know, entrepreneurs brains are wired to be totally okay. just winging it. Just figure it out as we go, we’ll just, I don’t know, we’ll change it. Entrepreneurs like to tell themselves, you know, we’re the people who jump out of airplanes build the parachute and the way down and all of that stuff. Yes. And but the people who work in the company are not entrepreneurial thinkers, typically. And if they were, they leave and go start another company, what they need is clarity, certainty, tell me where we’re going. Tell me what my role is, and getting us there, show me my path, my career path within this company of where we’re going, and then I’m going to get excited about that. Now, now I see, okay, I can see why I’m gonna stay here for 10 years, because I want to be on this path. Before I didn’t know if you’re going to change direction next year, or next week. Right, you’re gonna go see a motivational speaker, come back to the office say, Hey, guys, we’re going into a hold of me, we’re everybody’s doing AI. Now we’re gonna do everybody, we’re gonna do an AI company. Before that, we have to be a software company. Before that we have to be an innovative company, to just say, Okay, I know, I don’t know, we’re gonna take a lot of different turns and things may change. But I have a big idea of where we’re going. And if you get energized by that, then you know why you’re here. And you know, how you fit in. And that’s that sort of bridges the gap between the way an entrepreneur thinks and when and how their leadership team thinks and puts them really in sync, like, like most companies do not ever get to.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  21:46

Yeah, hadn’t really thought about that. You’re absolutely right, we do have a very unique way of being able to just cope with all that stuff. But for a lot of people, they want some stability, right? They want to know, well, where does this? How does this look in the future? Where do I fit in? I do want to one of the things I’ve really loved about it. And I’m happy to do this about three and a half years now. And I’m with a number of different companies is the three year picture is probably one of my favorite parts of that video. And I know it’s something really, really simple but you know, every other training thing I’ve done, whether it be through your scaling up or your or your or your eyesight, stuff I did, they had the big vision, they had the mission. But then they almost jumped straight into this other what you to do, and I think there was too big a gap. And so we will kind of go. So we’ve got this massive big, hairy, audacious goal over here. And then this year, we’re working on this stuff down here, like how does that all fit together? And that three year picture and painting a picture of what it looks like it really does bring that really big, hairy audacious goal, the 10 year target right there down to the ground for people I think

Howard Mann  22:42

does. And the interesting thing about it is that what’s helpful I think about the 10 year piece is that it forces people, I think we can get all get stuck in not being able to dream and think big enough. Because we’re just we’re if you know, if I had I was working with a company that had five locations, and and I said, Well, what if in 10 years, you had 30, because of they’re so used to sort of this trudging along growth, they think that’s insane. never stopping to think that, look, in 10 years, anything is possible. You can have 100 locations, you can have 200 locations, anything is possible. So just that exercise of forcing you to think I almost always say to my coaching clients, like I’m giving you a magic wand. So you can tell me that it’s not possible, I just gave you a magic wand. And so first pushing your your ability to think bigger, isn’t massively important. But then just as you said, Okay, that’s where we’re going to be in 10 years. So where do you need to be in three years, so that you’re on the way there and now you’re moved into this? This actually wrote an article prior to my EOS days called the 36 month year, which was sort of trying to break this trend of these annual numbers that you’re trying to hit, which really sort of only matter for public companies that have to report them. And to try to tell entrepreneurs, what half a year was 36 months? It’s bit of a construct that it’s 12. So what if what if a year was 36 months, then you wouldn’t be rushing, you’d actually make some longer term decisions, you would not be so crazed about what you do this year, because you’re trying to get somewhere in three years. And and just starting to think in terms of a 36 month year allows you to actually plant seeds in those first 12 months. It allows you to actually water them and get them growing in the second 12 months and to really make some leaps in profitability and revenue that that this sort of 12 month focus doesn’t allow.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  24:53

Yeah, that’s a really good point. I thought about that either. And I think just You just reminded me of a client I was working with them. I remember Obon, who, actually, when we were doing the 10 year target, he actually couldn’t lift himself out of the house. So although he kept thinking was okay, so, but we’re only here now. So there’s no way in the world we can be there. And you almost have to say, as you said, I have a magic wand over about the house. But just tell me what you really, really want. And if you tell me what you really, really want, there’s nothing to stop you from getting there. And when we left the room, we’d find these sort of got the team to kind of agree that it was a much, much, much bigger target as a cleaning company. So they’ve got only I think they only had about five or six cleaning franchises at the moment. But they really were driven by making a difference to the community and making a difference to the way the cleaning industry was was being operated. And so when we left, our con with the actual magic number was a massive number that they came up with. And then all of a sudden, once they kind of got there and kind of going, Okay, if we want to think about how we do it, but we’ll just pick the number and we kind of go with it. Even before he left that room, he was starting to think about a different way of getting there. So rather than kind of going, Hey, we just grow organically, by just bringing on one or two new cleaners a month, it was like, actually, if I want to affect that number of people, I might need to go and join the board of the International cleaners Association. Or I might need to you know, so it just changes the way that you approach things, if you can get that big picture thinking.

Howard Mann  26:14

It’s a push for that I remember reading about this great exercise that Airbnb does, which is they and I did this with it with a company just after I read about it, which was they say they take they take any process or anything within the company and say okay, just because they’re in the hospitality business, they say, Where would this be on? Are we a five star or one star? In terms of where we are? And people say, Oh, no, I think we’re probably at a three for that. And then they push the exercise and say, Well, what would we have to do to be a five? And then they keep going, what would we have to do to be a six and a SEVEN and an EIGHT and they go all the way to 1101? time you get? I’m not sure I part of me thinks it’s from that movie Spinal Tap, where they had the amp, they went to 11 because it was one more. But it pushes that and by the time you get to 11, you have insane ideas, mine are gonna carry every client by helicopter, whatever it is. But what they found happens is some of those ideas that come out in sixth, and seventh and eighth, are totally doable. Just forced, bigger thinking. And it’s this Yeah, it’s the same idea of like, Just be honest about where you are, and then successful, what would you have to do to get to four to five to six to seven? And yes, some of the ideas will be ridiculous at 910 and 11. But there’s other ideas that are actually doable. It’s just that your thinking is so bogged down in the house, as you said, or in what you’re used to what you’ve grown accustomed to, we can’t grow that way. We’ve never grown that way. We’ve never doubled our revenue, we’ve never done all those things. So why would it start now? And if you can push people outside of the thinking that they just grown accustomed to magical things?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  28:05

Yeah. And I’ve heard you so talk about Dan Sullivan. And we had there the whole book that he wrote with Mr. Thomas Hardy, the the who not how, you know, also, when you start to think really, really big, it isn’t actually about how you do it, but it’s who can you work with to help you to achieve that. And that starts to change your thinking too. I think for a lot of businesses, it’s like well, actually, if you don’t worry too much about the the Yeah, the how you can just think about who you can work with to achieve that.

Howard Mann  28:33

Yeah. Or even as you said, the minute that you got the cleaning company to just think bigger. Yep. The ideas of how it started coming.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  28:43

Yes, yeah.

Howard Mann  28:44

But But if he if he never got out of that initial, how am I that’s not possible. How am I going to do that? How would I do that? Those ideas never would have come to him. But once he once you set that goal, and I know in ELS they all say about the 10 year vision, you don’t have to know how to get there. You just have to first put the flag in the ground and say, This is where I want to be. And then we’ll figure out how to get there. Yeah, but you have to put that that that idea out there so that your brain starts to say, Hmm, let me start to think about how to get there. Yeah, that’s how you can do it. Yeah. As opposed to just like, how do I get to next month? How do I get to next quarter, I guess. Thank you.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  29:29

I’m loving Gina, do you know we can talk about the fact that we always underestimate what we can achieve in 10 years, but we overestimate we can achieve in the short term. So it’s really important that 10 year thinking really keeps you focused on where you’re going. Okay, video, definitely amazing tool. I think you and I can agree on that. And it’s really funny because I achieved like some of the old fashioned tennis of the year. So if I can say that in terms of, you know, the fact that we actually when we work together in a session we write things down. Even though I use some software to keep track on my iOS stuff. I actually print out and laminate my ers VTR every quarter I have four copies of it, I have one in my office, I have one in my session remote one in my car and have one at my home. And I literally, you know, I refer back to all the time, I’m thinking about does this make the needle go? Move the needle? Does it make the boat go faster? And if it does great, if it doesn’t, I can then start to say no to things. And I think particularly if you’re a person who struggles to say no to things, having that clarity of vision is like, oh, yeah, you know what? No, thanks. This isn’t for me.

Howard Mann  30:25

And guardrails. Right? They, it’s helpful to be able to have that filter to say no to things. Yeah, yep. Is it on here? Will that help me get to here, then it’s uh, yeah, it makes it an easier yes or no? Because yes, there is no shortage of opportunities coming at an entrepreneur, there’s no shortage of opportunities, they all sort of look good. We might as well try them. All. Right. It’s the idea of fewer better, but it’s, it’s, it gives you this filtering tool that makes it very much faster, yes or no? Will this get us to 10,000 people? Will it get us to serving 100,000 people or whatever our mission is? Yes or no?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  31:07

Yeah, it was. So the bright shiny object that’s taking me away from what I should be doing. As visionaries. You know, we we love those things. I mean, it really is, yeah, great. Hey, I can see that, you know, you’re obviously really passionate about healthy business. What’s your ideal kind of business that you work with? What do you love? What’s your, what’s your niche, if you like, and just people you’d like to work with?

Howard Mann  31:30

I’d love a privately owned business. I’ve never been one for big corporates, I like a business that is that has that has hit this ceiling that is at this point, they’ve probably been at that point for a couple of years where the entrepreneur just goes home at night thinking if only if only if only why, why is this year feel like last year and the year before the year before there is that quiet, they dare not say it out loud. They only say it to them, it’s what’s keeping them up at night, that they know deep in their soul that their business could and should be more. And they want to feel that they they want to make more impact. They want to get people they want to have a business that makes them proud. And something is stopping them. And so if they if they can just raise their hand and say, I don’t want to do this on my own, my pride is stopping me from asking for help to get to where I want to go, then anything is possible the minute they put their hand up and say, I don’t have all the answers. And it’s not that I know anything so incredible. But as the opening the opening lines in my first book, 15 years ago, now it was it’s hard to read the label from inside the bottle. And so half of what I’m doing is I’m not emotionally connected to it. So if I love working with the business owner who’s decided they want more, they don’t want to feel this way anymore. They want to make a bigger impact in the world. And they they want somebody who was willing to lock elbows with them in charge up the hill.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:07

Yeah. Love it. Okay, so three top tips for and what would you what are your, what are you going to share with the listeners around either your journey as an entrepreneur yourself or things you’ve learned on your way or even an EOS tool that you’re like, I don’t mind.

Howard Mann  33:23

Oh, we hit V to some of the other things that I find valuable is one is a strategic coach tool, which is which is the sort of magic four quadrants that that they teach you in Strategic Coach which is, is which is really trying to to focus in on your unique ability and to spend more time and unique ability. And the trick of it is to make this incredible brain dump of everything you do in a day or a week, all the way up to you know, putting stamps on things or envelopes or whatever it is you’re doing. And then to look at that list and turn it into things that you hate doing, that you are okay at doing. Then there’s a section that is things that you’re good at, but you actually don’t like. And the trick of it is that that we wind up spending all of our time in that quadrant. And we don’t get to this this unique ability, which is the thing that we were born to do, that we could do all day long and never get tired. In fact, our energy goes up and identifying that and then going through a process over time of of automating or delegating everything else, not overnight, but getting there. And I find that that a lot of the entrepreneurs that I meet are really their business, they’ve been pulled down by the gravity of their business because it grew. And so they’re spending a lot less time and their unique ability which is what allowed the business to get off the ground in the first place. But now they’re spending time on HR and people problems and negotiating with a landlord and a new lease and every other thing and proving invoices and looking at checks and you name it, and they’re not sure why they’re feeling so down but it’s big As they’re no longer spending time in the in the areas where they create the most value that comes, that is their gift that is their craft. And and it’s an exercise that I like to use to get them there.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  35:14

What is it so instant? It’s delicate and elevated in Eos, but it is.

Howard Mann  35:21

Well, there’s there’s a lot of crossover with strategic coach to tos and all the best ways, but it’s just this idea of just reconnecting to, to the activities that you love, because you’re innately good at them, doesn’t mean everybody is but you know, I had, I had a client recently who just felt guilty about just he just wanted to be out talking to clients and talking to potential clients. But he felt terribly guilty, that his his job was supposed to be running the business. And so was that unfair. And yet, the business existed because he was so good at talking to clients, and he wasn’t doing it enough. And so it was, it was a powerful conversation, to be able to say, you should be doing that. And there are people who would hate doing that. But love the day to day of running the company and the HR problems, or problems and all of that kind of stuff. And identifying that, right? The same way that there’s a visionary role in NGOs and an integrator role. And they’re not great to be the same person is that there are people who are different, there are people that love very different things, and identifying that so that you are liberated. You know, one of the biggest things that EOS does, I think is it solves the problem that everybody comes to, which is how do I work on my business instead of in it. And EOS is really powerful process for liberating the entrepreneur and the visionary, to get back to working on their business again, which is how they grew it in the first place.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  36:53

That’s exactly right. Yeah. Okay. So that’s the first tip, then what are the other two?

Howard Mann  36:59

Next one is is it’s a little bit from Mike Mike Lewis’s book profit. First, I’m a big fan of the profit first formula, which is revenue minus the profit equals the expenses that you have to spend, instead of revenue minus expenses equals profit. And I think it’s particularly powerful because people get in a real rut of not sort of making leaps and profit, which just gives a tremendous amount of freedom to the business and the entrepreneur. And I often tell people, it’s revenue minus the profit you’ve dreamed to make. And then it creates incredible clarity around your expenses. I think as as the tech industry has learned over the last year or so you can really get out of control with your expenses when you grow. I work with a company a year or two ago that was growing was doubling almost every year, and made the exact same amount of profit because they were focused on revenue, not the bottom line. And and I always say to people, revenue is for your ego, but profit will give you the business that you want. So that profit first formula is is a powerful way to start to get some religion about expenses,

Debra Chantry-Taylor  38:13

as I start to examine what’s really working, what’s not to it. I actually, it’s funny, because I always thought Profit First was really for smaller businesses, but it’s the philosophy applies to any size business. Yes, it’s, in fact, sometimes a little flip. That’s right. Yeah, perfect. Okay, last last but not least,

Howard Mann  38:29

let’s go at least is is is this idea that I’ve touched on a little bit, but you know, and I actually wrote a long screed about it. But I was trying to understand why business owners don’t ask for help. I had enough experiences where people who knew me who knew what I do, didn’t come to me and ask for help and then would would reach out to me when they had 30 or 60 days worth the cash left in the bank. And, and it really came down to I don’t know if we can curse on this

Debra Chantry-Taylor  39:00

podcast. Yeah, I’m so Sophie like.

Howard Mann  39:04

So So I wound up writing this long rant, which is titled fuck your pride, which was that pride is what is is crushing your business. And, and the subtitle was build a business that makes you proud. And it actually lives that manifesto around this and because that was my when I had my freight business. I didn’t ask for help for a couple of years. Yeah, and only when I asked for help, and I met somebody that became sort of a mentor to me, did things start to turn around because I was stuck inside the bottle inside the hurricane. And, and just getting outside of that pride and realizing that that pride is what is holding you back to have a business that makes you proud.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  39:53

I also have a little thing that I often talk about, it’s about flipping this on its head as well as I always say if I asked you to help me how to Does that make you feel? And most people go, I feel great about helping you just like you’re actually ripping people off if you’re not allowing them to help you, because you’re taking away that ability for them to feel really good. So please ask for some help. So you can make somebody else feel good.

Howard Mann  40:14

There’s this, there’s this thing of Superman thing about about being an entrepreneur, that’s just that’s, that’s broken, that asking for help is weakness. That if I did that, right, I mean, I succumb to the same thing. I thought, if everybody thinks that I’m this entrepreneur, I’m 31 years old, I’m running this huge business. If I ask for help, who am I, they all let them all down, or I’m going to break the bubble. But the truth was, it was the total opposite that I was I was in my own way. And if I asked for help, it would still be my business, it would still be me that’s doing it because I’m the one that asked for help. I’m the one that found somebody to help us get to where we needed to be.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  40:56

And I think sometimes you know what, I think you and I probably both been there, you know, when you are so bogged down when things aren’t going well. And you’re trying to turn things around, you know, it’s not easy to actually lift yourself out of the day to day the firefighting stuff that’s going on to really take a good hard look. I think that asking for help people can just, it’s so much I know as an iOS implement so much easier being on the outside of being able to ask those questions and is being on the inside. And even to the point where just recently I made the decision in our own business, we’re going to get an EOS implemented into actually facilitate our EOS cordeliers Because I’ve been doing it myself. And I think I do an okay job but I’m, I’m too close. I actually need somebody to be outside and ask those difficult questions and, and in a kind way, but you know, for the for the greater good, not just because they want to.

Howard Mann  41:45

I always think perspective, I think that ultimately what I’m offering is my, my experience there all kinds of good and bad stuff. But I’m offering perspective, empathy and kind candor. Yes. And if I can do those three things, then then good things happen.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  42:05

Hey, look, again, I love my podcasting. I think this is my things I love and I’m great. I hope I really enjoy doing I could talk all day. But we do have to kind of call it quits because we have a certain limited time for a podcast. Howard, I I love what you’re doing. I love the books that you’ve written. I love your philosophies. I’m sure there are other people out there who are listening who say yes, I wouldn’t want to be attacked this guy either. How would they get in contact with you? Where do they get the books from? It was a bit of information about yourself.

Howard Mann  42:32

And thank you for that. It’s very easy. Go to Howard man with two ends.com. And there’s a newsletter there. If you sign up for the newsletter, you get my first book for free as a PDF. The other book is there. It’s available on Amazon and Kindle and paperback and hardcover. There’s a podcast that I’m working on that I did did one last year. That’s just me solo, but I’m working on another one. But there’s a button right there to you know, my, whether I work with somebody or not as a client, I love to be in conversations with business owners who who want to have a real and candid and open conversation because there they want their business to be more. So you know, there’s a button there to just set up a consult with me. And it’s not a sales pitch. It’s just let’s have a really long, deep conversation and see if we can we can get somewhere.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  43:25

Yeah, that’s great. Hey, look, I’m sure that I would recommend anybody who’s thinking about doing that should do that. Because I know that we also share the same philosophy but it really is helpless. We’re not we never do any we never do any selling as such. It’s about actually, let’s have a conversation. Let’s see if we can help in some way.

Howard Mann  43:41

That’s amazing core value of ELS l first and it’s been true throughout my journey with them and it’s it makes a huge difference.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  43:49

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, Howard, thank you so much for your time. Please go back and enjoy the rest of your Friday evening, afternoon. Whatever it is, is it evening over there and

Howard Mann  43:58

it is almost it’s just past 930 In the evening here on Friday.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  44:02

Okay, well, you go into the rest of your Friday evening. Lovely to talk to you.

Howard Mann  44:07

A pleasure. Absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thanks